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Late in MTT. Is being priced in enough?
MovieFX
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March 9, 2016 - 2:10 pm
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Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter
No Limit Holdem Tournament PokerStars
8 Players
$2.00+$0.20
Blinds 2k/4k 8
UTG Rickloko88 94k
UTG+1 patr87 111k
MP1 Plodiumshree 154k
MP2 jesustar2 229k
CO xobit82 29k
D Alvinpe85 93k
SB tharaiserAA 127k
BB Hero 72k
Preflop
8 10k Hero is BB 8 6
Rickloko88 raises to 8k, 2 folds, jesustar2 calls 8k, 2 folds, tharaiserAA calls 6k, Hero calls 4k
Flop
4 36k 6 2 4
tharaiserAA checks, Hero checks, Rickloko88 checks, jesustar2 bets 20k, tharaiserAA folds
Final Pot 56k

Hero…?

 

31 of 440 left. 45 paid. Jumps are small until final table.

I had recently been moved to the table but the few hands I could view when I sat down were all big cooler hands so the table was hot. I must have been playing with V earlier as I have 122 hands. Nothing out of line with others: 21/17 / c-bet 50% / fold to c-bet 50%. He was in all the hands since I had sat down and was one of the chip leaders, so he might have been playing a little looser with more chips here. My image would likely have seemed TAG but I doubt V thought about it.

 

1. Should I have called preflop with 18BB, paying 1BB and getting 8:1? (Or is that 9:1…do you add the call in first?)

2. Flop c/shove? This is the weakest made-hand I’d do this with (combo-draws in my range too) but with the flop texture I would think there would be a lot more draws in V’s range (I’m not really blocking any. My kicker is close, but not for Ax combos), meaning I’d be ahead a good amount of the time, but I also not much fold equity here against V’s stack and table feel if he is drawing. The one thing that worries me is the size of V’s bet. It seems a little large but at the same time the hand is still 4-way so a slightly larger size isn’t that odd.

navinbits
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March 9, 2016 - 4:17 pm
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I don’t call pre-flop with 18BB, as even though you are getting enough odds, you really really need to hit the flop to continue, that is, top pair or a flush draw is not going to be enough most of the time. Straight/OESD or 2-pair/trips will be your only good hands to continue. If you choose to call pre banking totally on pot odds, I think this is an easy fold on the flop. Any card over an 8 on the turn could be a scare card for you (counter-intuitively, could be a scare card for villain as well)…

MovieFX
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March 9, 2016 - 6:23 pm
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I ran an equity calc and have about 50% against this range I constructed. WDYT? I felt these are the likely “made” or drawing hands based on preflop second-to-act-limp and leading the flop:

77-88, 55, 33, 3s5s, 3s6s, As3s, As5s, As7s, 7s5s, 7s6s, As9s, AsTs, Ks3s, Ks5s, Ks6s, Ks7s, Ks9s, KsTs, Qs3s, Qs5s, Qs6s, Qs7s, Qs9s, QsTs, 65s, 63s, 53s, 57s, 78o

(Interesting PT4 lets me enter a range with explicit suits, but in the end the equity ended up pretty much the same. That seems counter-intuitive.)

Now here is something very interesting. I removed 55 and 33 (which, after some more thought, are basically bluffs with so many left to act) and my equity dropped to 43.5%!

I’m not sure how to add in fold equity, but I think it would be low…maybe something like 10%?

This is feeling worse and worse.

I would love to hear more thoughts on preflop as well. I have a feeling I’m looking at a pretty big leak. How would you construct a defending range that is weighted by immediate pot odds? I’m starting to think I have been ignoring the negative implied odds post-flop if I don’t simply fold or hit hard. 

Foucault

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March 9, 2016 - 7:57 pm
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Well, the question really is whether you are “priced in”. If you are, then you should call – that’s what “priced in” means.

Getting 8:1 in a 4-way pot is not the same as getting 8:1 in a heads up pot. You have to consider how well your hand will realize its equity, and hands like this (small cards, not suited, not especially connected) don’t do a great job of that. The fact that you got a well above average flop and still aren’t sure you can profitably stack off is a good example of why this may not be a call preflop (I think it’s close – I’d call 87o or T8o).

If you truly can get it in on the flop with 50% equity, then that’s a very, very profitable thing to do. Remember, there is already money in the pot, so you’ll be flipping with a big overlay. If Villain never folds, you’ll be contributing about 40% of the final pot, which means you’d need 40% to break even. With 50% or even 43.5% equity, getting it in will be profitable.

To calculate fold equity, you estimate how often V will fold and then multiply that by the pot after his bet. So 10% (your guess) * (36K + 20K) = 5600 in fold equity.

All of that said, I’m not so sure about this range you’re assigning him. You call him the “second limper” but he actually flatted an EP raise, which unless he’s very splashy should subtract a LOT of those hands from his range: 63s, 87o, Q5s, etc.

MovieFX
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March 9, 2016 - 9:32 pm
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Awesome stuff. I’m going to run some more hands through this thinking.

I’m definitely going to tighten up my defends a TON and see how it goes.

While the range is wide, and I agree your examples should be removed, I find people with a large stack, on a rush, tend to limp anything remotely connected at micro-stakes. That said it is probably better to be conservative, right? This gets me just 38% equity: 77-88, As3s, As5s, As7s, 7s6s, As9s, AsTs, Ks9s, KsTs, Qs9s, QsTs, 65s, 9sTs, JsQs, KsJs

I’m not running through it this deep in-game. I definitely added some hands when sitting there with PT’s calc that I wouldn’t have considered in-game. I’m more thinking in chunks of ranges, so my thinking stopped at “he could have suited connectors and AXs for some combo-draws, but probably more suited-A-broadway, a few over-pairs below TT and a couple rare sets. Ship-it!”…I’m looking to fill in some in-game thinking between those two sentenceslaugh. In reality I’m trying to train myself to think in quantities (weighting) of these groups and try and recall some sort of equity thumbnail…if that makes sense. I think I’ve gone from too tight to being too loose now and need to dial it back. Still, considering I wasn’t thinking of equity at all 2 months ago, it’s all going in the right direction.

I love this: “The fact that you got a well above average flop and still aren’t sure you can profitably stack off is a good example of why this may not be a call preflop”. I like having a rational question to ask myself, or routine, when confronted with various situations. It helps me add good habits or get my head straight real quick so I can make a better decision. I’ve been asking myself a similar question to tighten up my EP range and remove some A-rags. One of BigDog’s live sweat videos has me scanning around the table these days looking at players and stack sizes saying “call, fold, call, shove, fold, call, shove” (simplifying) before deciding if I really want to open/call PF.

 

Result: H shoves. V has 77 …and sent me to the forums to post about it. My immediate thought was it was just unfortunate because I was playing and running really well – 50-125BB most of the tourney, top 4 in chips a few times – and could have found a better spot. That is why I wanted to question both the PF and flop decisions. Thank you all!

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