Home
(0 votes) 
With 17 left I was 8th in chips. Villian was running 42/33 with a 3bet of 27. Thoughts???
Poker Stars $10 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t1500/t3000 Blinds + t300 – 6 players
Hand Conversion courtesy of Tournament Poker Edge
jonmon2006 (CO): BB = 93.7, t281130
Roshmania (BTN): BB = 100.7, t302160
rbdrive (SB): BB = 42.3, t126753
AstraiosGod (BB): BB = 80.7, t242232
Dakicker (UTG): BB = 74.1, t222248
djmagou (MP): BB = 14.0, t42017
Pre Flop: (t6300) Dakicker is UTG with Q
Q
Dakicker raises to t7878, 2 folds, Roshmania raises to t18900, 2 folds, Dakicker raises to t45000, Roshmania calls t26100
Flop: (t96300) 5 K T (2 players)
Dakicker bets t45000, Roshmania calls t45000
Turn: (t186300) 4
(2 players)
Dakicker bets t131948 all in, Roshmania calls t131948
River: (t450196) 6 (2 players – 1 is all in)
Pffffff let me think about this hand for a while
SittingDucks said:
Pffffff let me think about this hand for a while
Preflop:
On one hand I understand the 4bet, but when this is someone who calls 4bets to see a flop then I'd rather flat my QQ to have his range wide. Also you keep the pot relatively small and that's not bad considering you are very deep and in an avg 10 dollar field your stack is worth a lot.
If you have enough history with this guy then I think it's allright to 4bet/snapcall.
Postflop:
Tough one, putting these guys on a range is quite hard. I think hands like 22-JJ, suited broadways like KTs KJs KQs QJs are all in his range. Also he might flat AA/KK/QQ instead of getting it in and also AK/AQ/AJs maybe.
On the flop I am not really sure what do make of the hand, I am very tempting to call, but in 80% you will have to call a turnshove also. I think I just fold. Meh Meh. It's soo temptinig to call, if he really had a monster wouldnt he check/call? Why would he bet?
June 25, 2010
Offline
pre flop, maybe 4 bet bigger, you are giving him odds to call with anything, especially in position. I also don't mind flatting and seeing a flop, but I probably four bet a little bigger. As for the post flop play it seems like you are betting so to not get bet at, which, imo, is never a good idea. I check, and maybe peel one depending on his bet size. After the flop you still have a decent stack, so you can lay it down and still be in good shape.
4bet not bad, but im raise calling his 3bet this deep. we're disguising hand vs villians ranges and if we have too give up on hand we still have a ton of play left with stack. i dont think that 22-88 are in his 3bet range. but 99+ likely, AK, AQ, suited braodways. since we did 4bet, ur cbet is std. Kx hands are in villians calling range as well as the flush drw. we can chk after his flop call or double barrel on the turn each option is ok i think(this is y i like calling 3bet instead of 4betting here, pot is smaller and doesnt commit us in a guessing situation when we double barrel). we could be beat or up against drw that villian is willing to chase with his big stack. with ur line pre and post its nothn left to do but get it in on that turn.
bjizz
July 3, 2010
Offline
SittingDucks said:
SittingDucks said:
Pffffff let me think about this hand for a while
On the flop I am not really sure what do make of the hand, I am very tempting to call, but in 80% you will have to call a turnshove also. I think I just fold. Meh Meh. It's soo temptinig to call, if he really had a monster wouldnt he check/call? Why would he bet?
I think you're misreading the HH. We're leading out on the flop, not villain.
My thoughts on the hand are …
Flat his 3 bet and look to bloat the pot on a non Ace or King flop.
A lot of deep stacks are left which means lots of room for fish to make mistakes. I try to pot control this one playing OOP. I'd hate to get in a massive flip situation or misplay my hand this deep by creating a big pot preflop and check calling an A or K high board all the way down.
I appreciate all the comments so far on this hand. Waiting for some of the pros to chime in before I post what happened. I have given this hand a ton of thought today.
JDOG1645 said:
I appreciate all the comments so far on this hand. Waiting for some of the pros to chime in before I post what happened. I have given this hand a ton of thought today.
The 4bet size (that is if we decide to 4bet) is really fine and really not too small.
Also I don't mind betting the flop smaller. Like ~30-35k. That way we keep the pot a bit smaller and also don't give up the lead. Fact is that there are not many kings in his range. He would push AK, you have blockers for KQ and then you have KJ and KT ( of which the T is a blocker).
I think it's 50-50 you have the best hand right here.
I think I'd bet the flop 35k, check the turn and bet the river 45k. If he decides to bet the turn I'd fold the hand.
As played I think it's 50-50, but I won't be surprised if the dude turns over TT 
June 11, 2010
Offline
Pre-flop doesn't bother me, I think the 2.5x 4bet is enough size to show that you aren't getting away from your hand and you are prepared to play for stacks with it, so I think it definetly helps define his range on this one, which I unfortunetly read as certainly having a King in there. Once the king hits on the flop, after my stomach finishes turning when it hits on the flop, I think I move into pot control mode. It is possible that he doesn't have on in this case (QJ, JT, AT, AQ, AJ something of that nature in his hand), but the K is such a big part of a 4bet calling range that I am not hating life a bit. Long story short I move into pot control once the flop hits and try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible (I think there is a lot of showdown value in your hand and getting info on his 4bet calling range could be very useful provided it is not crippling to get).
lespaulgman said:
Pre-flop doesn't bother me, I think the 2.5x 4bet is enough size to show that you aren't getting away from your hand and you are prepared to play for stacks with it, so I think it definetly helps define his range on this one, which I unfortunetly read as certainly having a King in there. Once the king hits on the flop, after my stomach finishes turning when it hits on the flop, I think I move into pot control mode. It is possible that he doesn't have on in this case (QJ, JT, AT, AQ, AJ something of that nature in his hand), but the K is such a big part of a 4bet calling range that I am not hating life a bit. Long story short I move into pot control once the flop hits and try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible (I think there is a lot of showdown value in your hand and getting info on his 4bet calling range could be very useful provided it is not crippling to get).
Wow wow wow. This is not a good line of thinking:
Pre-flop doesn't bother me, I think the 2.5x 4bet is enough size to show
that you aren't getting away from your hand and you are prepared to
play for stacks with it, so I think it definetly helps define his range
on this one,
I think the 4bet is awesome, not because it defines my villains range, but because villain will still have fold equity when he decides to shove. It's actually BAD when you show villain you are not going away, as all his bluffs will be folded.
so I think it definetly helps define his range on this one, which I unfortunetly read as certainly having a King in there.
You cannot put people on just a King, that's impossible.
I hope the pros will take a look at this and tell me the range they put this player on.
TS if possible could you provide us with a few hands that villain played, so we get a better idea how this opponnent has been playing? A hand stands never on itself, so every information is valueable
July 3, 2010
Offline
The fact villain is running 42/33 makes this so gross
July 3, 2010
Offline
Is a check-raise all-in on the flop just way too aggressive/spewy here?
Looking at the hand as played we're OOP and left with less than a pot sized shove after our c-bet is called.
So I mean what are our options after that? Open jam or check fold the Turn? Sucks.
June 11, 2010
Offline
SittingDucks said:
lespaulgman said:
Pre-flop doesn't bother me, I think the 2.5x 4bet is enough size to show that you aren't getting away from your hand and you are prepared to play for stacks with it, so I think it definetly helps define his range on this one, which I unfortunetly read as certainly having a King in there. Once the king hits on the flop, after my stomach finishes turning when it hits on the flop, I think I move into pot control mode. It is possible that he doesn't have on in this case (QJ, JT, AT, AQ, AJ something of that nature in his hand), but the K is such a big part of a 4bet calling range that I am not hating life a bit. Long story short I move into pot control once the flop hits and try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible (I think there is a lot of showdown value in your hand and getting info on his 4bet calling range could be very useful provided it is not crippling to get).
Wow wow wow. This is not a good line of thinking:
Pre-flop doesn't bother me, I think the 2.5x 4bet is enough size to show
that you aren't getting away from your hand and you are prepared to
play for stacks with it, so I think it definetly helps define his range
on this one,I think the 4bet is awesome, not because it defines my villains range, but because villain will still have fold equity when he decides to shove. It's actually BAD when you show villain you are not going away, as all his bluffs will be folded.
so I think it definetly helps define his range on this one, which I unfortunetly read as certainly having a King in there.
You cannot put people on just a King, that's impossible.
I hope the pros will take a look at this and tell me the range they put this player on.
TS if possible could you provide us with a few hands that villain played, so we get a better idea how this opponnent has been playing? A hand stands never on itself, so every information is valueable
I don't put him specifically on a Kx hand here, as there are certainly a good number of combinations of hands that he could have, but when I am evaluating how to proceed on the flop I am pretty sure that a K will connect with a substantial part of his 4bet calling range so I am now pretty certain I went from way ahead to way behind and drawing very thin (2 outs at best).
As for the 4bet to define where I am at I am not sure I completely understand why it is bad/not advised to indicate significant strength and get a clearer picture on where I am in the hand. In my experience when you start getting into late stage 4bets, very rarely are guys going this far with air… Does it happen, sure anything is possible, but even if he is really loose and is 3betting light, this late and this deep I don't think you are going to get guys pushing as far as a 4bet without something backing it up. If I am the villian in this and I get into this sequence PF I am pretty confident that I am going to see the hero's stack shoved on the flop and I think I couldn't be happier.
I am not sure I am articulating this well but to me I am pretty sure I am ahead preflop, way behind on the flop and I check the turn after having my c-bet called and see what he does (I don't think I shove and I don't think I can convince myself to double barrel this flop), and I am folding the Turn if he fires a good size bet.
I am interested to hear some more thoughts on this one as I would like to understand 4betting late a little further.
July 3, 2010
Offline
His combinations of hands that contain a King should really be AK, KK, and KQ.
But this guy is running 42/33 and I wish I knew how many hands that was over because his 3 bet is 27 so he's been playing so aggressively.
Don't get me wrong. QQ is an absolute beast. I just hate playing OOP so much, especially this deep.
That's really the only reason I said flat and bloat pot when an Ace or King doesn't flop.
We sit on the guy's immediate left and he's aggro as hell. I'd much rather own him in position all day than take the chance that we grossly misplay our hand here OOP by check calling all streets or something like that.
I know I'm supposed to be a pro, but I have no idea on what to do here. It sucks folding after putting in this much on the flop – but his call screams scary to me.
I'm sorry – this is just a really crappy situation and I don't have an answer.
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
Offline
I think preflop is fine. I think it's ok to lead the flop as well since he'll fold enough and we don't really want to call a bet OOP and then give up on turn.
On the turn though, I'd just check and let him widen his range to include bluffs. What I mean is, you're rarely getting any action at this point from anything you beat that wouldn't have probably tried to bluff you anyway. You do however fold out a lot you beat when you bet.
So I'd just check/fold or check/call because leading out only gets you folds or calls that would bluff you and removes bluffs from his range.
In the moment I probably check/call because I'm addicted to chips.
Im glad to see othesr think this is just a nasty hand….his stats was such a huge consideration in my decision. I felt if I couldnt check fold the turn with so much in, but I could have once I looked back at how many BBs I would have but it such a weak line. Anyhow waiting for BD and HTP to chime in and I will post the results.
I mean I think flatting the flop or 4 betting is pretty irrelavant to this hand. You decided to 4 bet and got called so Ill take it from there. He flats a pretty big 4 bet so I mean the range you have to put him on is pretty small imo. I doubt he has ak here because if im holding ak I would just choose to put it in pre flop in his spot. So I put him on JJ plus but am seriously leaning towards the fact he has aces. After you decide to c-bet and he flats again I would just shut it down. Its pretty hard for me to think that somone is going to flat a 4 bet pre and then flat that c-bet with out having atleast a king here. I always suspect when a hand like this is posted hes going to roll over a under like JJ but if he does its pretty awful. More times then not with this line and then your c-bet im never jamming that river. Having said that I think you win the pot so nh 🙂
Well hopefully Panda give us his thoughts. But Im going to go ahead and tell you how it played out. I will say that I relied way to heavyily on HEM stats seeing how aggro this guy was I thought he 3bet me light on the button and I thought he would ship a monster preflop. Having said that I thought about this hand a ton and I think we have to Cbet almost 100% of the time, being OOP truly sucks. After being called I should have just shutdown, I still had enough bigs to get away from the hand. I need to practice what I preach as now this hand has become extremely diffiicult for us to play and we are guessing on what he may have. So I shoved the turn and he called and flipped over AA. I think he played it extremely poorily, I mean Im telling him preflop I want to get the money in, why would you ever want to see a flop with AA when your opponent wants to get the money in pre? I mean when I bet flop jam turn now he has to be worrying about me spiking top set on the flop. I really didnt think a guy with that HEM stats would flat a 4bet with AA, I never will. Oh well….thanks for all the comments.
i think you should flat pf, and think that just because you didn't doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about pf. you're pf game is very important, and how you approach these 3b/4b/5b wars becomes extremely important as you move up.
obv 4b/get it in agianst this guy should be fine. i doubt your sample is that big if his VPIP is over 40, something like 30 hands? that, and our position, are the biggest reasons i flat.
the thing is, no one 5bets light. so when you 4bet one of three things happen: 1. you get it in PF with near the bottom of your range or 2. we play a 4bet pot OOP or 3. he folds and we win.
1. we are sometimes crushing TT/JJ maybe 99 ans some stuff like SCs if he's a special kind of awful (which we don't know) and fliping with AK and sometimes ~70% against AQ and the rest we're 20% against KK/AA. i like to have an idea how an opponent reacts to 3bets/4bets/in general before i go to war.
2. sucks for obv reasons (see OP), especially when one of our alternatives is playing a 3bet pot OOP.
3. we win the least from a decent chuck of his 3b range.
as played, i really don't know. sure it sucks to check/call and it sucks to bet/fold but it sucks to bet/call. once you do bet the flop, and he calls with less than a pot-sized bet left, i'm check/folding the turn.
i'm curious, what is your plan when you bet flop, esp that size? are you calling a shove? and if not, do you expect him to fold AJhh, AQhh, AThh, JThh, J9hh, AXhh? do you expect him to fold any FDs or SDs? if not, i doubt you can bet/fold. there are far fewer reasonable FD combos in his range given that the Qh and Kh are gone, but still i doubt you could b/f the flop if he's jamming these hands.
That flop is just so bad, so many draws out there and this guy had been very aggro I didnt expect him to fold any draws I expected him to call or shove them also he would play his strong hands the same way balancing his range at that point. I had decided that when I bet the flop and he called any non A non draw completing turn and I was going with the hand.
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
55 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
Tillery999
sdmathis89
ne0x00
adrianvaida2525
Anteeater
Laggro
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12008
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1
