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(2 votes) 
November 4, 2013
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Good morning TPE,
It's been a very informative two months, and I much appreciate all the feedback and help you guys have provided. I have a lot more to learn and am excited for the matrix to become more clear.
Unfortunately, life is demanding a bit of my energy in recent weeks and my availablity to dedicate to the study of MTT is sparse. I’m not making enough money from MTT to live on by any means, and that’s ok. I’'ll have to take some board exams (acupuncture) which cost plenty of money to study for (and to take), and my bank account is what Jack Nicholson called “light” in The Shining.
Furthermore, I am disappointed in my progress so far. I can tell I didn't watch as many videos as I'd like (still in the middle of Andrew's “getting paid”) and I am often suprised at how many situations arise each MTT that require tough decision making. I'm not satisfied with the choices I’'ve made in these situations. I’m pretty sure just a few days ago I made a lousy call against WackyJuan and sucked him out. (Sorry WJ)
There has certainly been improvement, but I want more. As soon as things clear up for me, I am jumping right back into this pool as the water is nice. My TPE subscription ends on 1/4/14.
Here is a question that I should ask:
Is there a certain point at which you guys would advise against late registration? If so, is it based on how many big blinds you start with? Is it very different for slow paced MTTs? I imagine we can register later in those than we can in turbos.
I play on Carbon, and they have extended their registration times sometimes up to 3 hours for MTTs that I wouldn't consider very big. Combine this with the reduced amount of time I have had to play, and I have found myself registering for MTTs later on average than I used to and more often turbo. After a while I felt that my results were diminishing.
I try not to register for turbos if I would start with less than 15BB (lately as I've not been dedicating proper time to it, I've been registering in turbos with as low as 10BB), and with slower MTTs I just try to use good judgement but lately that probably means as low as 9BB. I think this is not good and, of course, when I manage the time I register at the beginning. Are there good rules of thumb for when it's too late? I’m sure the payout structure affects it, but how? One assumption is that the more chips the chipleaders have, the worse it is to register late.
Thanks for all the good conversations. I'll return as soon as possible.
March 26, 2013
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I think this is quite an interesting question. I have no problem with late registration and do it sometimes. I think the things to consider are:
1. How big is your stack entering going to be relative to the average tournament stack? For example, if you need to double through more than once to get to an average stack it is probably a waste of time. However, if your stack will be within the boundaries of average or better upon a double through then it might be worthwhile.
2. How weak is the tournament? If the tournament is very weak and you feel you have a good edge then it is worth considering late registration so long as you are not needing a miracle to mount a challenge.
3. When you late register you have to think that you are paying more for your chips than everyone else still in the tournament. For example, say 3,000 chips is your starting stack and the tournament has an average of 4000, then in effect this suggests to me that you are paying more to enter the tournament than everyone else. For example, 100 people left in at 4,000 chips for a prize pool of $400 means each persons share of the tournament is $1 when you enter. Your share when you enter is nearer $0.75 given you have 3/4 of the average chip stack. These maths are probably not exact as it does not take into account your edge in the tournament, differing stack sizes etc etc but it does give a feel for how much edge you might need to overcome the fact that the stage at which you enter leaves you instantly behind the field, on average.
4. The later you register the less chance you get to play pots against the weaker players as on average strong players will outlast weak players. This is a pretty important consideration in my opinion.
I will be interested to hear other people's thoughts on the subject.
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December 6, 2012
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Poking_Fun said:
I think this is quite an interesting question. I have no problem with late registration and do it sometimes. I think the things to consider are:
1. How big is your stack entering going to be relative to the average tournament stack? For example, if you need to double through more than once to get to an average stack it is probably a waste of time. However, if your stack will be within the boundaries of average or better upon a double through then it might be worthwhile.
2. How weak is the tournament? If the tournament is very weak and you feel you have a good edge then it is worth considering late registration so long as you are not needing a miracle to mount a challenge.
3. When you late register you have to think that you are paying more for your chips than everyone else still in the tournament. For example, say 3,000 chips is your starting stack and the tournament has an average of 4000, then in effect this suggests to me that you are paying more to enter the tournament than everyone else. For example, 100 people left in at 4,000 chips for a prize pool of $400 means each persons share of the tournament is $1 when you enter. Your share when you enter is nearer $0.75 given you have 3/4 of the average chip stack. These maths are probably not exact as it does not take into account your edge in the tournament, differing stack sizes etc etc but it does give a feel for how much edge you might need to overcome the fact that the stage at which you enter leaves you instantly behind the field, on average.
4. The later you register the less chance you get to play pots against the weaker players as on average strong players will outlast weak players. This is a pretty important consideration in my opinion.
I will be interested to hear other people's thoughts on the subject.
You're spot on with #2 and #4. Basically late registering means you are missing out on opportunities that you would have had had you registered on time. If you are a poor deep stacked player (relative to the field), it's possible that missing those opportunities is actually +EV for you, though – this doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Your thinking is off on #3, though, because you ignore the players who have already been eliminated. You paid $1 for 3000 chips same as everyone else. You have fewer chips than most people still in the tournament, but more chips than people already eliminated (whose money is still in the prize pool). You are closer to being in the money than were thepeople with 4000 chips when they entered the tournament. The only thing they got for their $1 that you did not was the opportunity to play poker during the first few levels of the tournament. Depending on what you believe your edge to be, that may or may not be enough to turn the tournament into a -EV proposition for you – that's where your point about your edge over the field comes into play.
There's not going to be a single point where late registering becomes -EV. It depends on your strengths as a player and relative to the field. In any given hand, short stacks tend to have an advantage when playing at a table full of deeper stacked players, so there's nothing intrinsically unprofitable about being short-stacked.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Here's an interesting question that Nate Meyvis once posed to me (though I think he got it from Mason Malmuth): suppose you are going to play a $5/$10 cash game with a $1 ante. You are allowed to buy in for as much or as little as you want. What is the optimal amount to buy in for?
March 26, 2013
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Andrew, I take your point about paying the same as everyone else and that people have been eliminated but surely there has to be a point where being so short stacked in that you have to win a few flips before you are on an even keel becomes almost impossible to overcome from an expected profit perspective no matter how good a player we are?
To give you an example, I would never late reg a tournament with 10bbs if I knew the average stack was say 40bbs even though I feel my short stack game is very good. I simply do not think I can get 'lucky' enough in the long term to overcome the fact that my stack entering the tournament is so diminished compared to an average opponent to make it profitable. There must be a point at which one cannot profit. No idea what or how to calculate that point though for each tournament, too many variables.
November 4, 2013
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1$ should be optimal. You end up all in pre by posting your ante, giving you a 1/9th stake in the pot. The pre-flop action will force some players to fold, so their % of the equity in the ante pot gets split between all remaining players. If the remaining players were given ranges of ATC(to match yours), then you would usually end up with a 1/3 or 1/4 stake in the 9$ ante pot.
This also reduces your decisions in the hand to minimal, meaning you have less chances to make mistakes.
I could be wrong, but that seems as if it would be optimal to me.
November 4, 2013
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Poking_Fun said:
Andrew, I take your point about paying the same as everyone else and that people have been eliminated but surely there has to be a point where being so short stacked in that you have to win a few flips before you are on an even keel becomes almost impossible to overcome from an expected profit perspective no matter how good a player we are?
To give you an example, I would never late reg a tournament with 10bbs if I knew the average stack was say 40bbs even though I feel my short stack game is very good. I simply do not think I can get 'lucky' enough in the long term to overcome the fact that my stack entering the tournament is so diminished compared to an average opponent to make it profitable. There must be a point at which one cannot profit. No idea what or how to calculate that point though for each tournament, too many variables.
You can double up with “skill” as well… more by stealing than getting it in and surviving the fireworks. If your short stack game is very solid, you can register later than a person who has a weak SS game and expect to have the same end equity.
I think there are a lot of factors that need to go into late registering. I know formyself I personally avoid it, because I found I don't play as well. I find I take more chances than I would had I started at the beginning and lost a chunk of my stack. Rationally that makes no sense, but the patterns are there.
It also goes into personal feel. It seems to me that the OP would sometimes be late registering just to play a tournament. If you are rushed, or in a hurry or don't feel you can commit to the tournament, it's not a good idea to play. It will affect your decisions for the worse.
November 22, 2013
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I never late register.
There is also another consideration and it is an emotional one so take it with a grain of salt. I play mostly live large buy in tournaments so I generally have to travel some distance to get there. If I am late registering I feel rushed and feeling rushed is a horrible way to start a poker tournament. Also, I don’t like casinos, and feel a little uncomfortable in them. This is ironic because I spend 40 hrs per week in them, but I just don’t like them, they make me feel nervous, as if I am about to get swindled or something. Once I sit at the table and start playing the feeling immediately goes away. So for me, I always try to get to big tournaments at least 30 min early so I can “warm up”. If you are playing online then this is much less of a factor.
As far as the hypothetical, I like One Time’s reasoning. However, I think it depends on your skill, your strengths, and your opponents’ strengths. If you have a significant edge on the competition I think it would make the most sense to buy in for the maximum you can afford. If the field has an edge on you then obviously the amount you should buy in for is $0. Never play a cash game with people who are better than you are unless you are doing it strictly to learn and then it is going to be a very expensive education.
March 26, 2013
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Definitely agree that you can double up with skill by picking good spots to move in etc and think I understand that part of the game pretty well but even then I kind of feel that if you are too far behind the average then you're probably never going to profit in a tournament unless you get excessively lucky.
I think not late registering is probably the best idea but if you feel like you want to or have to then only do it if the tournament is a couple of levels in where you are still playing against weak players and have no huge deficit to make up.
March 8, 2013
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Here's how I view late registering, especially super-late like in the Carbon MTTs. If I am buying 1/4 of an average stack, I figure on average I will have to buy-in about 4 times to double up twice and get my average stack. Therefore, I consider this situation to be like entering into a tournament with 4 times the buy-in. I therefore will late register later for tournaments that I am very well bankrolled for, but not for tournaments near the top of my bankroll limits.
April 29, 2013
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No problemo regarding the suckout, Schwartz, it happens.
As for late registering online, I generally don't do it for less than a 15bb starting stack. It's just a “feeling” thing for me, and I generally don't like to feel the short stack pressure right away. 15bb's, even in a turbo, gives a bit of time to look for some nice openshove or 3bet shove spots.
As for the Wiz's point regarding live tourneys, I never late reg for these. I don't play large buy-ins like he does, so the smaller stakes that I buy in for have super fast levels (and many levels are skipped) so it becomes short-stacked poker too quickly. I also like the “warm-up” time of getting to the casino early and playing some cash to get in the mood.
Regarding Foucalt's question about the optimal buy-in for a 5/10 with $1 ante, I'm of the opinion that the buy-in should be 100bb's, but shouldn't exceed the largest stack at the table. If you're over-rolled, you'll be at the mercy of competent short-stacked players. I see the math regarding the $1 buy-in, but you aren't at a cash table to just play one hand, you're there for the “long-haul” and trying to make money in a 2-10 hour session. Sure, winning the first hand with lots of overlay would be good, but then your $9 pot minus the $5 rake becomes a $4 stack. You've quadrupled your stack, but you don't even have enough to post a SB. What're you going to do with $4 on hand number 2? How does this benefit you?
March 8, 2013
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I believe the question was intended to be an unraked game, and as for what to do after winning, either leave or buy-in for a reasonable amount! No one's forcing you to play for a $4 or $9 stack.
November 4, 2013
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I fully agree Wacky in regards to the Focault question. I was merely speculating on the optimal for 1 hand. If you win that one, it's probably a good idea to take your 4$ and go buy an ice cream cone….
The interesting part of that exact question is that it's answer isn't likely a numeric value. You can't say it's optimal to buy in for x$, becuase you are missing way to many factors to determine that. That could be the very point Focault is trying to hash out here, because late regging is not as simple as “buy in up until level 5 if you have a y% as ROI”. There can't possibly be a concrete guideline. It will vary from every player for multiple factors.
One thing mentioned above that actually struck home with me was the buy in amount. I used to late reg the Sunday Storm (11$) when the Sunday Mill(215$) started. I did this because I didn't want to sit at my comp for an extra hour in the morning for such a small buy in and potentially burn myself out earlier in the day or be influenced by something that happened in the Storm. However, I had this odd ability to cash a high % of the time in the Storm, so I would always reg it much later than i would any other tournament. I still do, for that matter.
Stakes matter. Especially in cash games. My normal live cash game is 150BB for the buy in, and I've seen Saturday nights where there are 7500BB on the main game. It's a bit of a wild game. In contrast, once we bump up the limits one notch and have a 200BB max buy in, our game tames down a lot. We still get the same $ value on the table, but our BB in play is much lower as a whole. Same players, just different game because we changed the blinds. We made the game relevant to bankrolls.
I'm sorry this is completely off tangent of the original post, but I am very curious on some players answers to Focault's question.
As for OP, let your results decide. Figure out how much late regging effects your end results and find the medium. It sucks because you likely have to go through a downswing before you can have enough results to know, but it's just a different strategy in the early stage. Adjust and punish the players who can't.
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December 6, 2012
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OneTime1Time said:
1$ should be optimal. You end up all in pre by posting your ante, giving you a 1/9th stake in the pot. The pre-flop action will force some players to fold, so their % of the equity in the ante pot gets split between all remaining players. If the remaining players were given ranges of ATC(to match yours), then you would usually end up with a 1/3 or 1/4 stake in the 9$ ante pot.
This also reduces your decisions in the hand to minimal, meaning you have less chances to make mistakes.
I could be wrong, but that seems as if it would be optimal to me.
Perfect!
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December 6, 2012
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Poking_Fun said:
Andrew, I take your point about paying the same as everyone else and that people have been eliminated but surely there has to be a point where being so short stacked in that you have to win a few flips before you are on an even keel becomes almost impossible to overcome from an expected profit perspective no matter how good a player we are?
To give you an example, I would never late reg a tournament with 10bbs if I knew the average stack was say 40bbs even though I feel my short stack game is very good. I simply do not think I can get 'lucky' enough in the long term to overcome the fact that my stack entering the tournament is so diminished compared to an average opponent to make it profitable. There must be a point at which one cannot profit. No idea what or how to calculate that point though for each tournament, too many variables.
Your goal in a tournament isn't to get on an even keel or reach an average stack, it's to win money. Those people with 40 BB stacks had to take risks to get them. Their 40 BB stacks are not worth 4x your 10 BB stack in real money. Yes of course you will not cash/win/etc as often as they will, but you will also cash/win/etc a lot more often than will the players who have already been eliminated. When you late register a $10 tournament that started with 1000 runners but now has only 800, it is costing you just $10 to compete with 800 people for $10,0000. So of course you shouldn't have an equal chance as of winning – you are getting an overlay on your money!
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December 6, 2012
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WizardZur said:
I never late register.
There is also another consideration and it is an emotional one so take it with a grain of salt. I play mostly live large buy in tournaments so I generally have to travel some distance to get there. If I am late registering I feel rushed and feeling rushed is a horrible way to start a poker tournament. Also, I don't like casinos, and feel a little uncomfortable in them. This is ironic because I spend 40 hrs per week in them, but I just don't like them, they make me feel nervous, as if I am about to get swindled or something. Once I sit at the table and start playing the feeling immediately goes away. So for me, I always try to get to big tournaments at least 30 min early so I can “warm up”. If you are playing online then this is much less of a factor.
As far as the hypothetical, I like One Time's reasoning. However, I think it depends on your skill, your strengths, and your opponents' strengths. If you have a significant edge on the competition I think it would make the most sense to buy in for the maximum you can afford. If the field has an edge on you then obviously the amount you should buy in for is $0. Never play a cash game with people who are better than you are unless you are doing it strictly to learn and then it is going to be a very expensive education.
I really like what you said about late registering. Honestly I am kind of the same way about casinos. It's really important to be honest with yourself about these little irrationalities or weaknesses that we all have. It's much better to accommodate them than to pretend they don't exist.
As for as the hypothetical, you surely could construct cases where you'd be better off buying in for different amounts, but I don't think there are any realistic ones. Buying in for $1 would give you an absolutely massive edge in the first hand that you play, probably something like 1/3 of a BB in EV. That would translate to 33BB/100, which of course would be an amazing win rate if you could sustain it for every hand.
Also buying in for $1 makes skill irrelevant.
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December 6, 2012
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WackyJuan said:
No problemo regarding the suckout, Schwartz, it happens.
As for late registering online, I generally don't do it for less than a 15bb starting stack. It's just a “feeling” thing for me, and I generally don't like to feel the short stack pressure right away. 15bb's, even in a turbo, gives a bit of time to look for some nice openshove or 3bet shove spots.
As for the Wiz's point regarding live tourneys, I never late reg for these. I don't play large buy-ins like he does, so the smaller stakes that I buy in for have super fast levels (and many levels are skipped) so it becomes short-stacked poker too quickly. I also like the “warm-up” time of getting to the casino early and playing some cash to get in the mood.
Regarding Foucalt's question about the optimal buy-in for a 5/10 with $1 ante, I'm of the opinion that the buy-in should be 100bb's, but shouldn't exceed the largest stack at the table. If you're over-rolled, you'll be at the mercy of competent short-stacked players. I see the math regarding the $1 buy-in, but you aren't at a cash table to just play one hand, you're there for the “long-haul” and trying to make money in a 2-10 hour session. Sure, winning the first hand with lots of overlay would be good, but then your $9 pot minus the $5 rake becomes a $4 stack. You've quadrupled your stack, but you don't even have enough to post a SB. What're you going to do with $4 on hand number 2? How does this benefit you?
Yeah, rake could complicate things. But having $4 in the next hand would still be pretty hugely +EV, because you once again get to make the fantastically good $1 investment, plus that $3 will go in pretty good too.
November 22, 2013
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As to the hypothetical, doesn't it also depend on whether you can rebuy? If you can rebuy an unlimited amount of times, or it is a cash game where you can retain the same seat and buy new chips from the dealer, your highest EV would be to buy in for $1 and take ten thousand $1 cracks at it. As Foucault stated, buying in for $1 would give you a winrate of 33BB/100. However, if you were only allowed one buy in the expected absolute win from that one hand would not be significant, despite the per hand win rate being huge. If you had a skill edge over the field it would be a more significant total win if you bought in for say 100BB, although your win rate per hand would be lower. Yet this does hit home his point. When you late reg you are essentially buying-in short, which can actually be an advantage. If you look at life as one continuous poker game, then you do have a situation where you are allowed unlimited short buy-ins if you late reg, which has its advantages and disadvantages. I will continue to register early, but it does change my perspective on rebuys. Previously, I thought rebuying was stupid as your short stack was too much of a disadvantage. However, if you bust out early due to a bad beat, and you have a significant edge over the field, maybe it is best to rebuy. I've seen pros buy in 5 or 6 times in certain rebuy tourmanents so I know it happens. Play slightly more aggressively to try to build a big stack and if you don't just rebuy. Some players are absolutely brutal with a big stack and it makes sense for those players to take high risk/high reward plays to build a big stack. If they bust they just rebuy. Of course, this assumes an adequate bankroll.
December 24, 2013
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i think it has less of an impact on bankroll implications as we initially realize. if you're lateregging multiple times and your +$ev strategy isn't impacted at all, then each latereg becomes a new entrant into a tournament where x/n of the field is gone. you can put 5 buy-ins into an mtt, but each buyin is literally a new tournament. this is always assuming your edge is in shortstack game, which i'm pretty sure with most mtt players, thats where it is. the math is easier, the decisions are less complicated, it makes sense that we as a group would have an edge there. it doesn't even necessarily have to be a big edge if the structure allows you any time at all. coming in with 15bb and you resteal over 4 limps or a raise and a call, you now have 20+bb. if youre in a situation where lateregging gives you no fold equity (this would be because players at your table are also short and looking to build quickly. desperation happens. whatever.), then it still really only takes one all in win to do anything after the fact. because there will always be dead money, and the nature of an all in and a call at that stack size, youre rarely getting it in bad/incorrectly. dead money in this case is blinds/antes and the overall knowledge that x amount of the field is gone already.
March 8, 2013
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jacobsharktank said:
i think it has less of an impact on bankroll implications as we initially realize. if you're lateregging multiple times and your +$ev strategy isn't impacted at all, then each latereg becomes a new entrant into a tournament where x/n of the field is gone. you can put 5 buy-ins into an mtt, but each buyin is literally a new tournament. this is always assuming your edge is in shortstack game, which i'm pretty sure with most mtt players, thats where it is. the math is easier, the decisions are less complicated, it makes sense that we as a group would have an edge there. it doesn't even necessarily have to be a big edge if the structure allows you any time at all. coming in with 15bb and you resteal over 4 limps or a raise and a call, you now have 20+bb. if youre in a situation where lateregging gives you no fold equity (this would be because players at your table are also short and looking to build quickly. desperation happens. whatever.), then it still really only takes one all in win to do anything after the fact. because there will always be dead money, and the nature of an all in and a call at that stack size, youre rarely getting it in bad/incorrectly. dead money in this case is blinds/antes and the overall knowledge that x amount of the field is gone already.
My counterargument to this point is that while some of your edge is in shortstack game, some of it is probably in deepstack game. When you reg with 15BB, you average fewer hands, and thus fewer decisions in the tournament. Given that each decision is a chance to make EV, it's harder to overcome the rake the later you reg. Now if it's a traditional rebuy tournament with no rake taken out of rebuys, then I will rebuy until the rebuy period ends.
November 4, 2013
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Thanks for the responses, as per which I feel more comfortable with late registration.
As OneMoreTime suggested, I think the bigger problem for me has lately been allowing myself to play rushed tourneys. Sometimes I knew I was rushed, and other times the MTT ended up lasting way longer than I had anticipated. Kind of like in recent weeks since Carbon’s extended late registeration layouts .. but not limited to those times.
I would still like to late register less often, especially for turbos.
Hmm, I wonder if the extended registrations are a successful way to help the best players win more, as the best players are the most likely to sustainably have the time. I hope it seems the opposite of arrogent when I say I don’t have that kind of time lately, as I wait tables and don’t even know how to spell arrogant. I admire you guys.
If I cancel next month’s payment, I’ll be back soon. Of course I am considering letting the payment go through. I have only barely broken even since subscribing, while I am reasonably in the green in my lifetime. Regardless, I can tell that I’m learning important lessons and hope to continue.
Happy New Year
December 21, 2013
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Very interesting topic.
Agreed with the $1 buy in in Foucault's brainteaser from a hypothetical point of view. In practice however everyone would do the same and the game loses all it's interest. Similarly if we ask out to play if they were no blinds or antes the trivial answer is to only play aces but if everyone does the same there is no game anymore and poker becomes solved and boring.
As for the initial post, here are my 2cts:
– Even if you are +EV in the beginning, I think there is an inflexion point : at the limit where you are allowed to register on the bubble, you are usually not even the shortest stack by doing so and you can very easily fold your way to mincash in a large MTT. In this case your ROI is typically almost 100% at least, which is greater than any realistic ROI when starting from the beginning.
This inflection point might be before the reg is closing, but this shows that by registring late you are more likely to mincash, while obviously less likely to go to the FT. So even if it reduces EV it improves the variance.
– Also one think no one mentionned is the value of the time we play : you might sacrifice your $/toiurnament and ROI but the impact on your $/hour is not clear if it allows you to play more tournaments. Personnally in low buy-ins soft tourneys like 1-3usd turbos I like to reg late and aim for 2-3 quick double ups : i don't care at all about min cashing, just trying to play very fast to avoid playing 2h for a 3usd mincash.
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December 6, 2012
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Very good point, jungix. I also think there's a lot to be said for playing a sane schedule that ensures you will be on your A-game should you go deep in one of the last MTTs you register on a given day. During WCOOP, I routinely late register because my day will (hopefully) be long enough already and I want to be prepared to play my best if I am still in the afternoon event 10 hours after start time. Clipping three hours off of the beginning of my day by late registering the morning event makes a big difference. To take an extreme example, I don't want to be burnt out thanks to playing three extra hours in the early levels of a $215 and then not play my best 10 hours into the $2100 main event. I knowingly reduce my edge (though I still expect to have a nice edge) in the earlier tournament in order to increase my edge in the bigger buy-in event.
December 24, 2013
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everyone knocks him, and he does things worth knocking, but i think hellmuth played this strategy to a T during the pca super high roller i think it was. for those unaware, it's like a 100k buy-in 3 day event, reentry for the first day and the beginning of day 2 is the last opportunity to register. phil helmuth tweeted a bunch about how much rest he got the day of this game. he came in like 8 hours into day 1 or 8 hours into day 2 or something, which is still say 30bb deep, but everyone else had been playing 8 hours+ where he had slept like 12+ hours and exercised. needless to say he busted within like 20 minutes of play (and the commentating laughed at this) but i seriously applaud his approach there. if he thinks others' are better/have an edge in preflop aggression when they have a million opportunities to take them, he's essentially eliminating 8 hours of chances for that shit to take place. there's definitely an inflection point but it's going to vary and i think people are bad at estimating it. the gambler fish and even the gambling regs take it too far. if someone's late regging their 5th or 6 entry into an mtt with 7bb and still half of the field, theyre probably burning money because youre not really talking about a double up or steal, youre talking about playing a hand of blackjack and then playing a poker tournament if you win the hand of blackjack. i think people who never late reg are probably misunderstanding their own edges. i find myself making better decisions 15-30bb than i do 100-200bb unless it's from building a big stack. it's a leak, but instead of ignoring it (or fixing it, i guess) i choose to spend my resources (brain power i guess?) accomodating this leak and coming in at a stack size my edge is still strong or positive and variance is a tad lower (since the probability of punting approaches 1 as time played increases). obv that last bit is hyperbole but think about it. i don't late reg all the time, nor do i tend to do it on purpose, but i treat the decision just as i would any other $ decision. bigdog's 1st sunday milly chop vid, he explained briefly his strat on large fields. there's def def value in letting half the field eliminate itself aand you just nut peddle, which at times will amount to you having starting stack several hours in if its deep enough. so you have 10k at 300/600. a few orbits later you can have 48k just by turning up the aggression and taking spots that come a few in a row so what if youll have 15-20k soe of the times playing the first few hours. i don't use these as reasons for ONLY late regging, but i use them as reasons to play. i need a reason not to play a tournament where i sense the field is weak overall, and coming in with fewer chips doesn't do that alone. carlos's thread did it for me along with that article on slavery. i'm a straight up priveleged white male and i won't deny any type of wealth/luck i've been given, but i mean i have a nonchalant attitude that borderlines apathetic. i didn't have a lot as a kid, so i just sort of got passive about it. don't stress, make what you can with what you've got, succeed, repeat somewhere along the lines.- foucalt youre totally right on the money there
November 4, 2013
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I really like Jacobsharktank’s comparison between super late registration and “playing a hand of blackjack so we can play poker if we win blackjack.”
That was a decent part of my concern in asking if 10-15bb late registration is a bad idea. But from this conversation I’m gathering that the blackjack analogy doesn’t materialize until even much later registration than that.
I can see that when it comes to very long tournaments, like 12 hours or 3 day tournaments, the late registration truly takes on the additional value of time spent doing other things like sleeping or studying. The games I play lately are much shorter, so the late registration doesn’t actually save that much time. I just need to make sure I have the time necessary to win a tournament.
Oops! I recycled my payment. I couldn’t stay away just to save 30 bucks as these discussions are too helpful and enjoyable.
January 12, 2014
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Just signed up at TPE, first contribution!! Booyah
Ok the most obvious thing was missed I think…
The earlier you are in a tournament, regardless of stake, the less talent exists. This statement is more and more of a factor as you go lower and lower in stakes.
I have an ABI currently of about $20. And it’s very common for my table to have 2-5 spewy psychos with 40+ VPIP just going nuts right at the beginning. You can gain so many chips by just being patient and waiting for value hands… If they don’t come, oh well you didn’t lose much because its pre antes and blinds are still pretty insignificant.
So sit there, set mine, get aces, and just hold up 🙂
October 6, 2010
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this is a great thread!
i kept on thinking i could contribute to it, and i would have something in my mind i was about to post about.. then i would read it in the next post!
the hypothetical is also very interesting.
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August 3, 2011
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If you are a short stack ninja of a player like I feel I am, I would buyin to some turbos with 15 bbs as a general rule of thumb. Some reg speeds 12-13 bbs is enough especially if you can find ones with a good structure that have really long late reg and if you double you are likely to make the money such as the late fiddy on ftp.
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