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Hey Guys,
Hand that played out last night, 16 left out of 10k runners in the $1r x3 on Stars.
Button shoves 5.3bb, we are 23bb deep with A5 in the SB.. Is there anything we can do here other than just shove? BB has 41bb so he has to wake up here to call. I dont see how flat/folding to a BB shove is ever right, folding just seems absurd?
Im thinking that Iso-shoving is the only option & if the BB wakes up then its a cooler?
Cheers
Poker Stars $1.00+$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t450000/t900000 Blinds + t90000 – 8 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
el-terribel (CO): BB = 20.4, t18321294
attiba69 (BTN): BB = 5.3, t4746600
Hero (SB): BB = 23.0, t20691435
petsan40 (BB): BB = 41.3, t37175250
DIMITRIS SAK (UTG): BB = 26.6, t23932985
Mr Rookie 83 (UTG+1): BB = 43.0, t38731394
mmleandro (MP1): BB = 11.2, t10116100
gino1112222 (MP2): BB = 42.6, t38312573
Pre Flop: (t2070000) Hero is SB with A
5
5 folds, attiba69 raises to t4656600 all in
This is a great question and tough spot. I am looking forward to seeing what everyone has to say. IMO, with the big blind stack to your left (who has you covered), I don't mind a flat in the sb. You are definitely ahead of the button shove, but if you 3 bet jamming you are putting your tourney life on the line with the bb left to act. I think by flatting you will get all the information you need from the bb on the way he acts. If for some reason you get squeezed off your hand that is okay due to the fact you will still have @18bb behind with 15-16 to play. Also, by flatting I think that this can scream extreme strength hoping to get squeezed.
How did the hand play out?
Hi mate,
I understand where you are coming from, I think flatting creates these problems: It allows BB to possibly shove higher aces that we could get to fold out if we shove, mainly hands such as A7-AJ, AJ is very marginal & depends on the player.. If I was the BB with the action in front of me, I would find it hard to call with anything less than AJ here.. I cant see how AT calls here? Also KQ & KQs could squeeze us here if he reads us as not trapping.
With that said, the range of hands in question here is very narrow. Flat calling just under 25% of our stack with the intention of folding to a jam seems to be a high % of our chips to give away if we get shoved on. Although saying that 18bb is still nice & would still just about give us FE – Prob better FE because we are so deep as opposed to mid-stages.
The + side to flatting is the fact it can be percieved as strong as you say., a few orbits before I flatted Aces in a similar spot & set up a shove & the BB was at the table when this happened.
Would really like to hear from Casey or one of the other pro's on this spot. I will PM him the link.
BB woke up with KK & was gg for us.
Yeah, I know what you mean in regards to just flatting, but I just think with the current situation you are in, players left, near final table, etc. more times than not players are going to play very face up. It is unlucky the villain in the bb had KK, but by just flatting I don't see them squeezing light (unless you have seen them, or have a history with the villain). They are not wanting to risk their tourney life with so many runners that deep with a marginal hand. I do see why shoving is optimal as well because it takes the top of their range to call you with in which case they had KK and anything less they fold. It is a tough spot and look forward to seeing what the other pros say. Best of luck at the tables.
Flatting is horrible with your stack given the relative weakness of your holding.
Youve got to fold to a reshove and being a $1r I wouldnt be surprised if the bb just flatted too
With bb still to act this is just an unprofitable chip burner.
Feel you need A5s+A8o+55+ here.
Thinking along the right lines I reckon but just a few pips short.
Hey Kouman,
Thanks for your input, Agree that flatting just never seems right.
I do have to disagree with you saying its an unprofitable chip burner & also I think your range is very tight for re-shoving, here is why:
We allready know that Button is shoving ATC pretty much here.. For 5.3bb we are snap calling here with A5 if it was SB vs BB, I would definately be iso-shoving a much wider range than A5s+,A8o+ & 55 vs his 5.3bb.
Running the maths with A5 its a very +EV call vs button.
With regards to the Big Blind, the fact we shove here imo gives him an even tighter calling range than if it were simply HU vs him & we were shoving on him. Giving him a calling range of 6.8% (88+,AJs+,AJo+) he is calling here only 6.8% of the time & our equity when called means we only bust out here vs him 4.8% of the time.
Making this iso shove is very +EV.. vs a shoving range of 75% from button we are 54% to win vs his range & by shoving we are only busting out just under 5% of the time when BB wakes up.
Cant see how this is unprofitable ever with the BB having such a tight calling range.
If we were bb v sb then yes Im beating him into the pot.
But put yourself in villians shoes.
Its obvious to all involved what he's doing and I think he fully expects to get called so on that basis I think you have to give credit for a little something. Ok its a $1 but does he really still push J4o? Gotta know he's getting called.
Dont think we can completely say 'any two'. Youve got a reshove stack and the bb has a gazillion chips.
On that basis Id say 45% is more realistic.
Taking your figures to task if its only 54% to win, but 5% of the time the bb wakes up then you see where Im coming from.
Thats why Im saying A5o is not the best defence here. Not profitable 'enough' if you want me to rephrase it.
I see your point here,
But would it not be better to look at it as a SB vs BB situation with a 5% risk attached to it. I mean 5% is such a small time we get called & lose that surely its effective to shove here knowing that we will get to play A5 vs Button wide range with 55% equity for a decent sized pot relative to our stack 19/20 times.
Its almost a 33% chip up for our stack if we win with such a small risk of busto if we get called from BB.
QuadJokers said:
But would it not be better to look at it as a SB vs BB situation with a 5% risk attached to it.
But blind on blind is a completely different equation which gets a completely different answer isnt it, and not what the o.p. asks.
The bb has to be considered part of the calculation and at micro stakes ive seen plenty of KQo come along for the ride too!
Doesnt the fact that 5% of the time we bust mean the BB is part of the calculation.. Dont forget here that unless he rolls over AA then we have 30% equity vs calling range & 30% of the time go on to be chip leader with 15 left.
I just think that when we calculate the BB to have such a tight calling range here, it gives us so much more reason to shove.
I dont think I can ever pass up the isolation shove here knowing that we are only going to be busting the tourney 1/20 times roughly.
Would be good to see what any of the pro's think.
Yes, reshoving. You're likely to fold out lots of better aces if the bb happens to have one.
Seriously doubt flatting is OK.
Geez…20 million chips…I miss the real sites.
QuadJokers said:
I dont think I can ever pass up the isolation shove here knowing that we are only going to be busting the tourney 1/20 times roughly.
I actually think you'll bust less than this, especially given the fact that you have a blocker. Maybe I'm just talking out my ass here though.
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