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Large stack size disparity HU on FT. Raise/fold, or shove?
The Riceman
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May 19, 2018 - 2:57 am
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 PokerStars Hand #186596128074: Tournament #2302297526, $25.71+$1.29 USD Hold’em No Limit – Level XXVI (6000/12000) – 2018/05/19 7:26:39 WET [2018/05/19 2:26:39 ET]
Table ‘2302297526 7’ 7-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 5: cbtb1987 (515662 in chips)
Seat 7: HERO (180338 in chips)
cbtb1987: posts the ante 3000
HERO: posts the ante 3000
HERO: posts small blind 6000
cbtb1987: posts big blind 12000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [Qc Ts]
HERO: raises 165338 to 177338 and is all-in
cbtb1987: calls 165338
*** FLOP *** [6h Jh Ks]
*** TURN *** [6h Jh Ks] [4c]
*** RIVER *** [6h Jh Ks 4c] [Td]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
cbtb1987: shows [Th Kc] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
HERO: shows [Qc Ts] (a pair of Tens)
cbtb1987 collected 360676 from pot
HERO finished the tournament in 2nd place and received $818.10.
cbtb1987 wins the tournament and receives $1148.86 – congratulations!
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 360676 | Rake 0
Board [6h Jh Ks 4c Td]
Seat 5: cbtb1987 (big blind) showed [Th Kc] and won (360676) with two pair, Kings and Tens
Seat 7: HERO (button) (small blind) showed [Qc Ts] and lost with a pair of Tens

A fairly straightforward question, to which I am fairly confident I know the answer, but just interested in some thoughts.

We are HU, Villain has 43 bb’s, I have 14 bb’s. In the SNG’S I play where I get most of my HU experience,there is usually much less disparity between stack sizes. I don’t have an A or K blocker, and I know it is a +ev shove. 

Just wondering how a large stack disparity affects the dynamic. My guess is that I should be more inclined to shove than if the stacks were more even.

Is anyone r/f’ing this here?

GameTheoryOptional
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May 19, 2018 - 2:56 pm
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Depends on if there is a noticeable skill advantage one way or the other. If I feel like the other player has a skill edge against me I would make shoves like this but if I think I have the edge then I will r/f here or even limp/fold if he shoves.

Foucault

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May 20, 2018 - 2:17 pm
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I don’t htink stack size disparity matters at all. Why would it? The effective stacks are 14bb. What difference does it make whether Villain has 45 or 450?

DuckinDaDeck
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May 22, 2018 - 7:56 am
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I only limp or shove with <20bb effective unless villain has been wildly overfolding. As a standard I’m shoving QT but its a nice hand to limp/fold if villain has been checking his option a lot.

I think the only relevance of villain’s stack size is psychological, but it’s really hard to get inside villain’s head without a lot of history, and really easy to make poor adjustments based on faulty assumptions. Is villain the type to gamble less with a chip lead because he thinks he can grind you down rather than risk getting back to even stacks? Is villain willing to take more risks because he’s feeling invincible and in a rush to win the tourney? How can you tell?

Regardless, congrats on the nice score Riceman!

The Riceman
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May 23, 2018 - 6:05 pm
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Hey people, thank you for your thoughts.

GTO said

“Depends on if there is a noticeable skill advantage one way or the other. If I feel like the other player has a skill edge against me I would make shoves like this but if I think I have the edge then I will r/f here or even limp/fold if he shoves.”

Understand and agree.

 

Foucault said:

“I don’t htink stack size disparity matters at all. Why would it? The effective stacks are 14bb. What difference does it make whether Villain has 45 or 450?”,
and DDD said:
“I think the only relevance of villain’s stack size is psychological”
These last points are totally related in my mind, or at least they were in the moment in game. I felt dominated and that I needed to make a drastic move. Looking at it now, I prefer r/f’ing.
TBH I got a little paranoid after posting my question that there really wasn’t too much of a disparity in stack sizes, but I am happy to report that when I next played HU in a 27-180 man turbo SNG there were indeed only 30 bb total in play. Also, when I warm up HU vs PokerSnowie pre-session, I use a shorter structure. (There are options to widen the structure vs. Snowie…I am going to practice deeper from now on).

DDD said:

“I only limp or shove with <20bb effective unless villain has been wildly overfolding. As a standard I’m shoving QT but its a nice hand to limp/fold if villain has been checking his option a lot.”

Interested in this DDD. I understand how one might make a balanced open limp strategy…open limp every hand you play, whether it is weak or strong! But in seriousness, how do you construct your ranges <20bb’s please?

(DDD said:

“Regardless, congrats on the nice score Riceman!”
 
Thanks man! Things are looking way up for me poker wise now, and for a too-considerable-a-time for it to be a fluke…well, I don’t want to tempt fate, but…I think I deserve it finally, poker is the thing, alongside one other professional endeavour, that I have committed to the most re: study and perseverance).
 
theginger45

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May 23, 2018 - 9:48 pm
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Foucault said
I don’t htink stack size disparity matters at all. Why would it? The effective stacks are 14bb. What difference does it make whether Villain has 45 or 450?  

This. In heads-up play, cEV and ICM are the same, ergo differences in stack size don’t matter at all. We should only be considering the immediate EV of the play and our edge over our opponent, but the differential in stack sizes doesn’t make any difference to either of those things.

DuckinDaDeck
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June 4, 2018 - 12:34 pm
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The Riceman said
Interested in this DDD. I understand how one might make a balanced open limp strategy…open limp every hand you play, whether it is weak or strong! But in seriousness, how do you construct your ranges <20bb’s please?

I have to be honest, I haven’t put in any rigorous work on my heads up game in a long time, so I don’t know how useful my suggestions will be. My approach when I’ve gotten heads up this year has been relatively passive and exploitative, with the exception of one game that went heads up extremely deep stacked vs. a player that was clearly miles ahead of me in short-handed play (5 handed to heads up he seemed to play nearly perfectly in every hand). In that game I reverted to making bigger bets, 3betting preflop and attacking flops wider than usual, and luckily that match ended quickly with me winning a cooler, QQ v AKs all-in preflop with each of us ~75bb deep.

Assuming 12.5% antes you can profitably shove:

20bb  42.4%: 22+,A2+,K2s+,K8+,Q5s+,Q9+,J6s+,J9+,T6s+,T9,96s+,98,85s+,75s+,65s,54s

15bb  51.1%: 22+,A2+,K2s+,K4+,Q2s+,Q8+,J4s+,J9+,T6s+,T8+,95s+,98,85s+,87,74s+,64s+,54s

10bb  63.8%: 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2s+,Q5+,J2s+,J7+,T3s+,T7+,95s+,97+,84s+,86+,74s+,76,63s+,53s+,43s

You could build a strong strategy around shoving most of those hands and limping the bottom of the ranges, many worse hands, and some big pairs/strong aces/suited broadways. You’ll be pretty unbalanced to weak hands when limping but you’re getting a great price and the match is unlikely to last long enough for villain to figure out what you’re doing and/or know how to exploit it. Limping your entire range can also be viable. Even though you’re sacrificing a lot of preflop EV with your stronger hands, you’ll get to play them in position with at least some maneuverability.

If villain is rarely raising my limps, I’ll adjust by limping ~70% of hands and making profitable shoves with some hands that can struggle to realize equity postflop. That’s just off the top of my head, heads up is an area of my game that is sorely in need of work (but ~9000th in the priority order of things I need to improve).

When adjusting this way (at 20bb), I’d shove something like: 88-22,A3s-A2s,A7s-A6s,A9-A4,K7s-K5s,KT-K9,Q7s (12.8%)

Fold: T4-T2,94-92,84-82,73-72,62,52,42,32 (13.5% – offsuit combos only)

Limp everything else.

As I get shorter I’ll move more hands into the shoving range and maybe fold a few more weak offsuit combos. Again, I’d really recommend doing some work on this yourself as I’m far, far, far away from being an expert at heads up play. Hopefully this gives you an okay starting point, or at least something for a better heads up player to get a chuckle from.

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