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September 14, 2014
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#Game No : 654881952 ***** 888poker Hand History for Game 654881952 ***** $400/$800 Blinds No Limit Holdem - *** Tournament #65340014 $4.50 + $0.50 - Table #23 9 Max (Real Money) Seat 6 is the button Total number of players : 8 Seat 1: _Fahrino_ ( $16,255 ) Seat 2: A11SeeingEye ( $88,700 ) Seat 4: aussietuck ( $11,450 ) Seat 5: Tomaak ( $36,582 ) Seat 6: Laudy71 ( $17,776 ) Seat 7: THE_KID67 ( $90,607 ) Seat 9: Jean.Cul ( $45,540 ) Seat 10: london_ace ( $15,810 ) aussietuck posts ante [$100] Laudy71 posts ante [$100] _Fahrino_ posts ante [$100] Jean.Cul posts ante [$100] THE_KID67 posts ante [$100] london_ace posts ante [$100] Tomaak posts ante [$100] A11SeeingEye posts ante [$100] THE_KID67 posts small blind [$400] Jean.Cul posts big blind [$800] london_ace raises [$1,600][ Kd, Td ]
_Fahrino_ folds A11SeeingEye calls [$1,600] aussietuck folds Tomaak folds Laudy71 folds THE_KID67 calls [$1,200] Jean.Cul calls [$800] ** Dealing flop ** [ 7, Q
, J
] hey
reads - v is a bad player , plays terrible post flop , earlier they got in with over 40-50bb with TPWK in a multi way pot.
thoughts on shoving flop?
January 28, 2013
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If villain is bad and called off 40-50bb with top pair and weak kicker why are you shoving a draw for value when his calling range is going to be wider? Our value in this hand comes from fold equity + hitting our draw when called by top of villains range. Villains range is going to be wider, so we have less fold equity. I think this makes this spot less profitable but i would have to investigate to be certain.
This is also a 2x PSB shove in a multiway pot that should hit villains ranges a lot of the time. You do not have a backdoor flush draw either. I personally think this is too loose and prefer calling the min flop bet and evaluating on the turn.
Most of the value we get from 20bb stacks is being able to reshove over loose openers. I personally dont particularly like the raise/fold option from first position especially if the table has a fair few big stacks and/or is loose. We will be playing OOP throughout the rest of the hand which is not spectacular. I am inclined to fold this preflop and look for better value spots.
September 14, 2014
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yeah i agree ,i would consider this a number 1 spot come to think of it which means v is very unlikely to fold. Hero's bluffing range should not bewide in this spot, better candidates for this would be monster draws like A
: K or T 9 A T 4 sure.
January 28, 2013
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I would not be overbet shoving so big with those draws you mention. I would be raising the min flop bet with the intention to call it off to a 3bet on the flop, or shove any turn.
September 14, 2014
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raise flop and shove turn ain't bad either but i'd prefer to do that if the effective stacks were a bit deeper like 30bb for instance or even at like 50bb.
January 28, 2013
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Why would you want to be that much deeper?
Think about how this affects our sizing.
After the two bets on the flop we have 14,110 chips left and the total pot is 7,600. We can easily raise this 800 bet to ~3,500-4,000 chips. We should expect some folds from villains and if only one villain calls this raise there will be ~14,000 chips in the pot with ~10,000 behind for our turn bet. Granted if we were 25-30bb effective deep it makes the sizing a little better, however I think 50bb is too deep. We would want to be raising the flop bet then barreling turns and rivers, not shoving the turn.
September 14, 2014
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Yeah 50bb is deep , however even if u have like 50-75bb , you should lead on the flop with the intentions of re-evaluating your descion based largely on your opponent. If you get to the flop with 60bb, bet out 5bb and are raised, your course of action should depend on the frequency of your opponents flop aggression. If he's very laggy, you should re-raise with the intentions of getting it in, because your opponent may be bluff raising the flop fairly often and even when called, your hand will have excellent equity against his range.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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I agree it's better to split your bets over two streets (probably folding/checking back a club), but I disagree about the history with a Villain being a reason not to bluff. Even if it's impossible to get him off of top pair, it's not that easy anyone, especially a loose player who sees flops with many weak hands, to HAVE top pair. He may hold a J, a 7, a club draw, or even a hand like T9 that you crush. Not to mention that your equity is fine against top pair.
January 5, 2015
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The good part of this hand seems to be the fold equity, and it looks like it could be thin. At a glance it looks like one V is on maybe a pair and the other on a flush draw or a pair or BOTH. Getting them both to fold right now seems 20-30% ish, maybe less if they are BAD like you said…so a lot fo the time we are going with our 8 outs and maybe 6 if its a flush draw. I think 7 outs is a safe count here, giving us 28% equity ish…say 30%
So if they fold lets say 25% of the time we win .25(6400). If called (lets just assume only one calls) 30% of time we win a pot of about 34,000 which gives you 10,200 for a difference of -3800.
Overall, we are win .25(6400) – .75(3800) = -1250
Cant see it being profitable…unless my math is wrong. Its late and my mind is fuzzy…double check me?
September 14, 2014
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Andrew, how wide should our bluffing range be in this spot? i think it's pretty close between 2 or 3?
I'm going to say number 3 though given how loose he is.
also i'd like to make up a quick example
lets say stacks were deeper yeah and we have the same flop as in OP, we decide to bet v calls , turn is a blank 2
v checks , hero bets , v calls , river 5
v checks my question is how wide should our bluffing range be against this opponent on the river?
against a unknown player , i'd consider the river a number 4 spot , though against this opponent i'm unsure , think i’d check back and give up on my bluff against him..
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