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Knew I was beat but too committed to the hand
JoStylin
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March 28, 2016 - 9:19 am
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https://www.jivaro.com/profile/LeeroyJenkins1301/posts/56f845f507c4007507ee2da5/

 

By the time I had fired 2 barrels I realised I was probably beaten but by then I felt unable to get away from the hand with the serious damage it had done to my stack. I would be interested to know if anyone else would fire two barrels like I did and if so, would they have adjusted their bet sizing or done it differently so they could find a fold?

MovieFX
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March 28, 2016 - 1:23 pm
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I can’t see the hand history since that site requires registration. You should just paste it in this site’s “HH” feature.

I’ve long suspected, and recently feel confirmed by some comments on a TPE podcast, that there is no such thing as being committed to a hand if you feel you can’t win it. Being pot committed, based on odds and with more cards to come, is different.

For example, say I am in position with AheartAclub and fire 2 big bets on the way to this river leaving myself a 1/4 pot sized bet behind: AdiamondTdiamond9diamond4heartQdiamond, and then V lead-shoves putting me all-in. I can fold.

I don’t know how often we get that kind of certainty, so I’d have to judge in any given situation if the feeling is fear or information driven. Not easy, for sure. I never feel committed though. I think this is more about discipline and not giving up.

JoStylin
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March 29, 2016 - 8:51 am
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Thats not entirely true. There are many situations where, due to pot odds and bet sizes etc, you end up committed to a hand.

 

…..committed/

Foucault

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March 29, 2016 - 10:59 am
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JoStylin said
Thats not entirely true. There are many situations where, due to pot odds and bet sizes etc, you end up committed to a hand.

 

…..committed/

If you’re getting 4:1 on the river but can only beat a bluff, you are only committed if you think your opponent will bluff >20% of the time. Plenty of people just shrug and say “Welp, 4:1, I’m committed” or “I’ve got half my stack in there, I’m committed”, which is not correct. “Committed” just means that calling is +EV, but people act like it’s some weird obligation to call in -EV spots.

JoStylin
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March 29, 2016 - 1:18 pm
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Foucault said

If you’re getting 4:1 on the river but can only beat a bluff, you are only committed if you think your opponent will bluff >20% of the time. Plenty of people just shrug and say “Welp, 4:1, I’m committed” or “I’ve got half my stack in there, I’m committed”, which is not correct. “Committed” just means that calling is +EV, but people act like it’s some weird obligation to call in -EV spots.

Ah I think I have been one of those people that has felt an obligation. I worry about table image so much that I feel if I fold in certain spots then my image will be trash. I think like MovieFX said I need to find more discipline in those spots.

Foucault

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March 29, 2016 - 2:16 pm
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JoStylin said

I worry about table image so much that I feel if I fold in certain spots then my image will be trash. 

What does that even mean? You should basically never do something for the purpose of cultivating a particular image. Just make good plays and then deal with whatever image you have as a result of that. In general image just isn’t nearly as important as most people make it out to be. Mostly your opponents are just playing their cards, they aren’t thinking that much about you one way or the other.

JoStylin
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March 29, 2016 - 6:23 pm
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Foucault said

JoStylin said

I worry about table image so much that I feel if I fold in certain spots then my image will be trash. 

What does that even mean? You should basically never do something for the purpose of cultivating a particular image. Just make good plays and then deal with whatever image you have as a result of that. In general image just isn’t nearly as important as most people make it out to be. Mostly your opponents are just playing their cards, they aren’t thinking that much about you one way or the other.

lol when you said “what does that even mean” I assume that is rhetorical? When you say you should never do something for the purpose of cultivating a particular image I am a bit shocked. Several of the greatest players of all time do exactly this. An example is Mike Caro who sits at every table and plays like a maniac for the first several rounds and then tightens up in order to get more action from his lousy table image.

Now its certainly true that on a $3.30 pokerstars tournament, most people will not give a toss about this stuff but I do not believe I should ignore it because the players are level 1. 

Overall you can find articles and books galore that discuss table image and I am a little stunned at your reply.

Foucault

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March 29, 2016 - 7:09 pm
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I meant what specifically does it mean for your image to be “trash”? What kind of image is a “trash” image and why is it bad?

I would not recommend Mike Caro as a source for poker strategy, outside of stuff related to physical tells. I’m aware that there is a lot of talk about the importance of image but from what I’ve seen it’s pretty much all bunk. There is a LOT of bad poker advice floating around out there, and a lot of it is coming from people with name recognition. There are a lot of people who were big winners in poker 10+, or even 5+, years ago who are not remotely competitive in tough games today and are really not good sources of poker strategy.

Virtually every time I’ve seen someone on these forums invoke the idea of doing or not doing something because of image considerations, that person would be much better off just forgetting about image entirely than using it in the way that they’re using it.

More on this: …..your-image

JoStylin
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March 29, 2016 - 7:20 pm
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Foucault said
I meant what specifically does it mean for your image to be “trash”? What kind of image is a “trash” image and why is it bad?

I would not recommend Mike Caro as a source for poker strategy, outside of stuff related to physical tells. I’m aware that there is a lot of talk about the importance of image but from what I’ve seen it’s pretty much all bunk. There is a LOT of bad poker advice floating around out there, and a lot of it is coming from people with name recognition. There are a lot of people who were big winners in poker 10+, or even 5+, years ago who are not remotely competitive in tough games today and are really not good sources of poker strategy.

Virtually every time I’ve seen someone on these forums invoke the idea of doing or not doing something because of image considerations, that person would be much better off just forgetting about image entirely than using it in the way that they’re using it.

More on this: …..your-image

Thanks thats a very nice article. It gets frustrating sometimes because like you say, there is so much poker advice available now that it is hard to find the good stuff.

The Riceman
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March 29, 2016 - 7:30 pm
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“What does that even mean? You should basically never do something for the purpose of cultivating a particular image. Just make good plays and then deal with whatever image you have as a result of that. In general image just isn’t nearly as important as most people make it out to be. Mostly your opponents are just playing their cards, they aren’t thinking that much about you one way or the other.”

This is something valuable I took from your last video series Andrew. That just because you had, for instance, a tight image thus far does not give you the right to make a raise from say early position with an unsuitable hand. Folk are playing their cards primarily, and a raise is either profitable or not profitable.

I must say I am rather surprised to hear you dismiss Mike Caro out of hand. It is true, I know absolutely nothing of his poker skills at the table, but I believe him to have a wonderful mind. He gives seminars to non-poker playing folk regarding life in general, and I admit in times of difficulty I often find myself turning for advice  to Mike Caro’s wisdom.  

The Riceman
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March 29, 2016 - 7:34 pm
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Sorry man… I re-read your post and you aren’t as down on my man Caro as I first thought.

The Riceman
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March 29, 2016 - 7:41 pm
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I secretly really like Mike Caro. Between you and me please?

TReznik101
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March 31, 2016 - 2:05 pm
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By ‘trash’ image do you mean one that will get paid off? Lol sounds good to me. No matter what image you have there’s always a way to use it to ur advantage and like others said, that’s assuming they have been paying attention to more than their cards.

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