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November 28, 2015
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This is one of those cuspy hands that I have trouble remembering. I guess it’s not GTO to shove this hand from this position with 13bb, right? despite the results of course.
WPN, $30 Buy-in (250/500 blinds, 50 ante) No Limit Hold’em Tournament, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager – The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
SB: 9,544 (19.1 bb)
BB: 4,320 (8.6 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): 5,196 (10.4 bb)
UTG+2: 6,636 (13.3 bb)
MP1: 25,484 (51 bb)
MP2: 6,750 (13.5 bb)
MP3: 2,465 (4.9 bb)
CO: 4,632 (9.3 bb)
BTN: 50,185 (100.4 bb)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K J
Hero raises to 5,146 and is all-in, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls 5,146, MP2 folds, MP3 calls 2,415 and is all-in, 2 folds, SB raises to 9,494 and is all-in, BB folds, MP1 calls 4,348
Flop: (27,499) K 2 T (4 players, 3 are all-in)
Turn: (27,499) 4 (4 players, 3 are all-in)
River: (27,499) 3 (4 players, 3 are all-in)
Results: 27,499 pot
Final Board: K 2 T 4 3
SB showed J J and won 8,696 (-848 net)
Hero showed K J and won 18,803 (13,607 net)
MP1 showed 8 8 and lost (-9,544 net)
MP3 showed 9 Q and lost (-2,465 net)
July 24, 2018
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GTO shows it not as a shove. I tend to be a little tighter than GTO in these spots, as I find it much easier to shove from the SB and the button and get folds that I shouldn’t get.
February 5, 2015
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Mkid questions such as this one can be answered by yourself just checking a Nash shove chart or SnapShove or an ICM ChipEV calc. like HRC.
I’m not knocking you…I used to post a load of hands myself which involved all ins and Nash ranges…all I needed was an equity calculator and a Nash chart!
I can’t imagine KJo here is miles out with 10bb stack. All I can add to the stuff that you can answer yourself from checking a Nash chart is that if the table is full of very tight players you are more able to widen your push range relative to Nash because you gain fold equity…
This I had the wrong way round even though I have studied preflop GTO for years…I assumed that you could widen your push range if people were calling wider than Nash, due to your equity vs their range being better. In fact fold equity wins out and if people are calling wider than Nash this means we should shove tighter than Nash. Which leads to the conclusion that Nash is concerned with fold equity…but this blows my mind. How do you incorporate an unquantifiable such as fold equity in to a mathematical model? Maybe Andrew or Matt or someone can explain.
And always look at the antes. If the antes are greater than 10% then KJo might become a shove.
November 28, 2015
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I understand Riceman. I have the free version of SnapShove, and I swear to you the other day I was doing the training simulation and a few times I notice when I had answered a question (I don’t remember which ones specifically) they would say my answer was incorrect and when they showed me the ranges to “SnapShove” the hand was actually in the range. Then, I would answer the question “Correctly” and the hand was not in the ranges they showed. This happened at least 3x in a row. So I don’t put to much faith in SnapShove (maybe because it’s the free version). But I don’t want to train myself incorrectly. I see what you’re saying though, as I am sure it gets annoying. I mean no harm by it though.
February 5, 2015
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Riceman said:
“This I had the wrong way round even though I have studied preflop GTO for years…I assumed that you could widen your push range if people were calling wider than Nash, due to your equity vs their range being better. In fact fold equity wins out and if people are calling wider than Nash this means we should shove tighter than Nash. Which leads to the conclusion that Nash is concerned with fold equity…but this blows my mind. How do you incorporate an unquantifiable such as fold equity in to a mathematical model? Maybe Andrew or Matt or someone can explain.”
Been thinking about this. In fact I remember asking Clint Losch about it years ago when he was my coach.
1) We were talking about SNG Wizard, and this question came up…do ICM calculators factor in fold equity? He paused, then said “sure they do”…but didn’t elaborate. It has always remained unresolved in my mind. If so, how can an unquantifiable be factored in to a mathematical calculator?
(2) What the hell happened to Clint Losch? He disappeared off the face of the planet…he was a good guy…I hope he is ok…has anyone seen him?
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