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KJo in HJ w/ 19bb's: open, shove or fold?
KingBustYou
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May 4, 2011 - 5:50 pm
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 Wasnt sure what to do here. Had two bigstack OTB and in SB. SB played back a few times c/r me and another player so I didnt want to play a flop w KJo w/ under 20bb stack. So I shoved. What's the correct play here?

 

Poker Stars $10+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t800/t1600 Blinds + t200 – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

Hero (MP2): BB = 19.1, t30500
yoaless (CO): BB = 26.1, t41829
Mtt_Raven (BTN): BB = 52.3, t83737
FBScorpion (SB): BB = 46.7, t74762
SuperFleXxX (BB): BB = 12.6, t20210
Cresp0 (UTG): BB = 58.3, t93314
JamsLaNoche (UTG+1): BB = 18.7, t29964
SirElwood (UTG+2): BB = 11.7, t18685
sabri760 (MP1): BB = 74.7, t119585

Pre Flop: (t4200) Hero is MP2 with K of spades J of clubs
4 folds, Hero raises to t30300 all in, 2 folds, FBScorpion calls t29500, 1 fold

Flop: (t64000) 8 of diamonds Q of diamonds K of clubs (2 players – 1 is all in)

Turn: (t64000) 4 of clubs (2 players – 1 is all in)

River: (t64000) 2 of clubs (2 players – 1 is all in)

Third@eye
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May 4, 2011 - 6:17 pm
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 My normal play here would be to Raise 2 1/4xbb to 4xbb, but if the player had been putting pressure on me with his big stack and pushing me allin alot to steal my raise  i'd proably just call as not to give him the value to rr allin, then if he just raises 3 to 5xbb I can call and atleast get to see a flop. You still have an M of 7+ here and i'd normally only start shoving with an M of -5, you can use the extra M of 2 for a call or a raise before risking all your stack Imo. If I had an M of -5 it would be an instant shove for me too.

 I may not be correct but thats how i'd do it smile

KingBustYou
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May 4, 2011 - 7:05 pm
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sorry, but i totally disagree w/ ur thought process here.

opening up to 4x is just terrible and limp calling up to 5x also. defenitely w/ 20bb or less, but that doenst really matter. I'm not looking to lose blinds and lose my fold equity playing a voulnerable hand. 

minraising and cbet/fold would cost me about a quarter of my stack, so my intention here is to pick up the blinds and increase my stack over 10%. 

maybe raise-folding or raise c/f if we miss is still possible, but i went for the shove seeing i was barely playing a hand being carddead or having action ahead of me.

i think folding in this spot is too weak since my range should be so narrow giving my image that players should only be calling w/ their top range. if i get called i'm crushed for sure, but i expected to get folds over 90% of the time here. 

i'm asuming ur new to the site and poker, but w/ the help of TPE ull be getting better and more knowledgeable pretty fast. gl 2 ya

Third@eye
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May 4, 2011 - 7:29 pm
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 I'm not new I just like to think outside of the box a little. And to waste 19 bb on that hand to me is also horrible imo, just to pick up 4800 from the middle. Atleast my way you would still be able to play more than just 1 hand with your chips if you run into trouble. And I didn't say to raise 4xbb I said raise fron 2.25bb to 4xbb as I like to alternate my bets. And also I said this limp call manuver would only be used against this particular player as you said he kept coming over the top when you raised.

How is it any different than you raising and him calling?

And why does it have to be min raise cont bet, can you not play and maybe not cont bet if it dosn't hit?

I agree that folding is too weak but I also belive raising 19bb's is too much.

Sorry I must have forgot theres only 1 way to play this game with -20bb's fold or shoveconfused

KingBustYou
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May 4, 2011 - 8:03 pm
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Changing your betsizes is bad as it gives away tells like people raise 3x and than raise 4-5 if they have JJ-KK, AK because they dont want rag aces to call and outflop their JJ-KK or small-mid pairs to outflop their JJ-AA, AK.

By limp calling you are giving away control of the pot oop. If you raise its much easier to represent a hand if you missed and still take it down. If i'm the first into the pot i'm always raising, whether it be AK, big pairs, small pairs, suited connectors or crap. 

Sometimes when I shove and lose I also start to think “what if I just raised and b/f or c/f, I'd still have 15x or something to play with and still be in it to win it”. But if you do you'll lose you're FE after you paid the blinds and are down to 10bb and have to narrow you're shoving range and you'll blind down even more and bust. 

True, it's not the only way to go, but these pros know what they're doing and have come so far by playing the style they're teaching us. So in the long run it will pay dividence to play as these professionals (or at least I'm trying). 

You can't always hope to double up when you're down to 10bb everytime and then say “good thing I played it passively before or else I would've been out.”

I was 68/107 in the tourny in question and I openshoved 18bb w A10s from MP and got called by AKs and busted. If I had minraised and folded to a 3bet I still would have had 16bb to find another spot to double up. But you're not going to get premiums that often that you can wait for it because you'll blind down and be forced to shove weaker holdings with not enough blinds for big stacks to fold your shove. Ive been shoving crap OTB and in the SB to keep me alive and when I finally had a decent hand someone had a better one. 

But if you like to play differently and it works for you and your confident, then good for you. 

P.S.: It's possible I'm not completely right shoving KJo there or the A10s I played. Would like to hear what the TPE pros have to say about it.

hapetimes
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May 4, 2011 - 9:30 pm
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the amazing thing about poker is that in these spots there is no right or wrong and so many variables alter the more correct (or less corect) way to play

 

I agree folding is bad, but somehow think that jamming close to 20BB's is marginal

 

I would min raise and fold if played back at…

and if i'm flatted from the SB just play standard post flop ie be flop dependant as bigdog says.

Missing the flop and Cbet folding is horrible as we throw away FE

 

This way we dont risk our entire stack which probably gets crushed when called, and if we miss the flop we still have 27.6k for future hands (17BB's)

my opinion fwiw

hawkeyeK9
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May 5, 2011 - 3:12 pm
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Folding pre is not bad imo and if fact I think it is the best play. Now if I think the people behind me are likely to fold (relatively tight) then shoving is not bad. If they are not tight though, I am folding KJo with 19bb's in MP2. You still have plenty of FE and time to wait for a slightly better spot. People think you have 2 face cards with 19bb's that you have to play them, not true…you are in the same shape if you shove T 8o in that same spot. Who cares what your cards are, with the two big stacks behind you, pick your spots well and there will be a better one soon.

DroppinDimes
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May 7, 2011 - 12:06 pm
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I agree with hape, just minraise/fold but i dont hate jamming either.

G0liath
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May 8, 2011 - 2:15 am
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I fold probably, or minraise and fold to action. I don’t like open shoving here unless I have -16bb

swet1
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May 9, 2011 - 10:52 am
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I fold pre here, a min-raise prob. gets abused in this spot. Any stats on the opp? Have thay been agg, 3betting a lot? What are your stats at the table? What are the blind levels..5, 10 or 15?

KingBustYou
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May 12, 2011 - 4:40 pm
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10min lvls, ive been fairly quiet, players behind werent agg, pretty straight forward, thats all i remember. just knew that they were only calling w JJ+, AK, so i had 95% chance to get my shove through, if called i was ****ed basically

hapetimes
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May 12, 2011 - 9:02 pm
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this supports the fact that we could get away with taking it down with a min raise

basically – when players left to act are agg and you want to play a hand, you should shove more often than you raise. This is due to the fact that if you shove, there are a lot of hands they fold that they would otherwise reship on you to steal eg they would never CALL your all in with T9s, but they could definately reshove this hand on you and it would play well if you called them

On the other hand, when there are tighter straight forward players left to act, you will get away with stealing (whether you shove or min raise) around the same amount of time. The difference is, if you shove and they call – you're crushed, but if you raise and they reship you can let it go and move on.

Hope this makes sense

KingBustYou
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May 14, 2011 - 7:38 am
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it does, tx for the replies guys;

 

TPE!!!

badabing78
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May 14, 2011 - 8:06 am
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i would say shove or fold.

4x would be in this situation imo just terrible cause with that stacksize you commit yourself anyway.

i would consider min raise maybe only if the table dynamics showed me that it worked a couple of times before or/and the opponents have a really low 3bet stat. but it makes your life not easier, you have to make tough decisions on the flop if you get called, are you willing to cbet also if youz miss the flop?…

 

so i would say if you wanna play that hand in this situation – all incool

isaacjames
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May 15, 2011 - 6:29 pm
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im folding this one, too many stacks to go through, large (ready to abuse you), small (ready to call light).  and I am not that short. 

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