Preamble
At the time I felt that this could be a good resteal spot but I wasn't sure and did not execute.
I ran some rudimentary post game analysis and think it could've been a +1.23 M shove that I missed, which is pretty big given that's 22% of what I'm left with when I fold.
However this is based on some narrow ranges and that assumption may well be completely out and could really change the result.
Hence I'd like a second (or third…) opinion. Maybe some keen tool user (like ICMizer or SNGWiz) can play around and give me some decent information to think about?
Setup: situation, player types, image, and history
It's level 12 of the big 4.40 so about 40 mins of play until the bubble bursts (so no bubble dynamic, and chips needed). There is one sitter who just got moved to the table waiting for the button to pass, so raiser is MP1 but may not notice and hence might play more like EP.
Hero has been at table 56 hands (both opponents seen all) running 16/16/0 played 0 of 6 hands on sb and only has a steal% of 29. Looks like tight aggressive or even a tight passive player since only one hand of post flop play: called a 3b from bb after opening the button and folded to a cbet at 44bb effective. OPR looks good over 2009-2011 (>97%) but mediocre since (~63%). Over 5.3k games finish distribution is an ok looking 10/19/40/21/11. 15% ITM.
224 hands on the raiser: 28/12/2; has EP PFR of 16% (78) and MP PFR of 8% (49). Only seen raiser face a 3b 3 times two of which raiser was in EP and once on the button; he folded to two and called one (from EP) and this 3b was from the same player who is now (and was then) the bb see this hand at the bottom of this post*. Seems like a loose passive player who might be one who likes to steal a little from EP. OPR looks mediocre over 1.8k games at 69% with a good looking finish distribution of 8/18/38/26/10. 14% ITM.
86 hands on bb 35/20/6; has cold called 2 of 6 opportunities on bb and 3b 1 of 6, but have seen not seen him face anything like a raise and 15bb jam. Seems like a bad loose aggressive type though, leaning towards loose passive. OPR looks pretty solid over 3.2k games (>97% for 2011, 2012, and 2013) although his finish distribution looks pretty bad at 14/26/34/15/10 and the vast majority of his winnings come from 2 games at the $10-20 level which only accounts for 250 of the 3.2k games. 13% ITM.
The Hand In Question
Poker Stars $4.00+$0.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t150/t300 Blinds + t40 – 8 players – View hand 2341091
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
Hero (SB): BB = 14.8, t4433, M = 5.76
BB: BB = 32.8, t9827, M = 12.76
UTG: BB = 69.7, t20916, M = 27.16
UTG+1: BB = 57.5, t17247, M = 22.40
MP1: BB = 24.2, t7272, M = 9.44
MP2: BB = 13.5, t4043, M = 5.25
CO: BB = 148.8, t44650, M = 57.99
BTN: BB = 46.7, t13996, M = 18.18
Pre Flop: (t770) Hero is SB with K 2
2 folds, MP1 raises to t600, 4 folds, BB calls t300
… and the rest does not matter.
* The Hand When Raiser from MP1 above (now UTG+2) Called A 3b
Poker Stars $4.00+$0.40 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t50/t100 Blinds + t10 – 9 players – View hand 2341113
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
Hero (SB): BB = 50.7, t5068, M = 21.12
BB: BB = 53.3, t5330, M = 22.21
UTG: BB = 32.7, t3270, M = 13.62
UTG+1: BB = 33.3, t3330, M = 13.88
UTG+2: BB = 40.6, t4062, M = 16.93
MP1: BB = 72.5, t7249, M = 30.20
MP2: BB = 115.3, t11530, M = 48.04
CO: BB = 25.6, t2565, M = 10.69
BTN: BB = 10.8, t1075, M = 4.48
Pre Flop: (t240) Hero is SB with J 7
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to t200, 5 folds, BB raises to t500, UTG+2 calls t300
Flop: (t1140) 4 6 9 (2 players)
BB bets t500, UTG+2 calls t500
Turn: (t2140) 7 (2 players)
BB bets t800, UTG+2 calls t800
River: (t3740) 2 (2 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks
Final Pot: t3740
BB shows Q A (high card Ace)
UTG+2 shows 8 6 (a pair of Sixes)
UTG+2 wins t3740
March 26, 2013
I really cannot see an instance where I would shove K2s for 15bbs. I would much rather open shove a decent hand on the button or in the blinds than risk this shove. Basically, against a lot of MP raises your 15bbs shove has no fold equity almost regardless of player and will play awfully against most MP ranges when called. Easy fold. If you had KQs then it starts to become a different matter.
March 26, 2013
AJLV said:
I think it's a fine spot to steal. I would rather do it with 56s than K2s though.
So, the MP1 guy is raising through 2 players that have 10-15bbs stacks + into a couple of big stacks + if he r/folds with 24bbs will start to get lowish himself. Also, his limited stats say he has only raised 8% in MP (which does not necessarily mean he won't open more but suggests he could be on the tighter side). That all says to me that this guy is not r/f to a 15bbs reshove so I strongly feel you need a decent hand here to reshove and in my book neither K2s or 65s qualifies. Remember most of the profits for this kind of shove come from getting the raiser to fold and I do not feel there is much f/eq in this spot at all.
August 8, 2013
Poking_Fun said:
AJLV said:
I think it's a fine spot to steal. I would rather do it with 56s than K2s though.
So, the MP1 guy is raising through 2 players that have 10-15bbs stacks + into a couple of big stacks + if he r/folds with 24bbs will start to get lowish himself. Also, his limited stats say he has only raised 8% in MP (which does not necessarily mean he won't open more but suggests he could be on the tighter side). That all says to me that this guy is not r/f to a 15bbs reshove so I strongly feel you need a decent hand here to reshove and in my book neither K2s or 65s qualifies. Remember most of the profits for this kind of shove come from getting the raiser to fold and I do not feel there is much f/eq in this spot at all.
I disagree, I think with 24bb your 15bb shove has a ton of fold equity. I would rather shove 56s here because when called it usually has more equity against his opening range than K2s. I'm not saying either hand is great, just that I would rather shove 56s than K2s, meaning I would rather shove almost anything but K2s 🙂
Thank you for your replies Poking_Fun and AJLV.
At the time I thought it could be a good resteal spot, and thought MP1 could be playing more like they were in EP (from where it looks like this vilain does steal a little), also if they do notice the table is short handed they may be a bit more likely to steal than normal anyway.
As regards the 56s vs K2s debate, I agree with AJLV that 56s has more equity vs the calling ranges than K2s (probably around 3% more, although we are not in great shape either way IMO), and I also agree with AJLV that there is quite a bit of FE in this spot.
I was really hoping for a more quantitative response though.
It would be great if someone who likes to get Pokerstove, ICMizer, or whatever out and do number crunching could take a look and give a more quantitative opinion.
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