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Full Tilt Poker $3 $0.30 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t1000/t2000 Blinds + t250 – 6 players
Hand Conversion courtesy of Tournament Poker Edge
8-EaSyMoNeY-2 (BTN): BB = 16.0, t31974
algar420 (SB): BB = 33.9, t67737
BBird40 (BB): BB = 30.0, t60008
Pongnang (UTG): BB = 24.0, t48082
GivingTree (MP): BB = 31.5, t63090
acemillz420 (CO): BB = 6.1, t12291
Pre Flop: (t4500) BBird40 is BB with J
T
4 folds, algar420 raises to t6000, BBird40 calls t4000
Flop: (t13500) J
T
7
(2 players)
algar420 checks, BBird40 bets t6778, algar420 calls t6778
Turn: (t27056) Q (2 players)
algar420 checks, BBird40 bets t12530, algar420 raises to t54709 all in
2nd hand at the new table…No reads what so ever. All new faces…ITM and getting deep
Your move? What could you have done on the turn? Or anywhere else diff?
The turn is so ugly…I think you have to fold there without any reads on the opponent.
but I think I would have bet bigger on the flop to not give any str8 draws odds to call and try end the hand.
June 25, 2010
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i think your bet sizing is a little small, but the move he makes on the turn looks a lot like KQ, AK or maybe 77? either way I don't think we can lay this down. I would bet 7777 on flop, then I would bet 17,777 into the 30k turn pot for what it is worth.
OK ill note it to myself bigger bet sizing.
Here is my rationale on the flop bet. Wanted to induce some action by making it look weak maybe he would shove over or raise to try to take it down(even though this would commit his stack if he did). Then the turn comes and I get my wish. This type of thinking bad? Or should I just bet bigger no matter what. No matter what meaning Top 2 on the flop or complete Air…help me out with that plz
Spite call and if he donk floated AK it'll encourage him to do it next time. What an ugly turn card.
I'm not sure I'm betting any more than you with top 2 on a fairly dry flop. KQ is prob calling your flop bet, possibly AJ, QQ, 99 or complete air (ie -AK). I use the weak lead out when I have big hands too. Alot of times they'll try to blow you off your hand and you'll win a huge pot. Sometimes you get screwed when they do have the draw, but I'm of the mindset that it's better to go for value here with the lack of a flush draw and a very unlikely str8 draw possible.
June 25, 2010
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yeah i would make a bigger bet with your entire range that you're betting, including bluffs and so on. The bigger bet on the flop may actually make him spazz out a little more because he will decide that he isn't getting the right odds to call, and may jam AK, which is beautiful. Also just a note on the turn bet sizing. First, i don't have a problem checking the turn for pot control, as the Q is a scare card for hands you are getting value out of, and it completes draws, better two pairs, etc. Second, lets say a 4 peels off and he checks. your bet does set up a river shove, but if you increase your bet sizing enough you can have the option of jamming the turn for not that much over pot, or making impossible to lay down to a river shove. If he thinks about that then it could cause him to spazz turn, or hopelessly bluff river with missed draws because the pot is way bigger than his stack.
I will say this guys. This was my thought process.
Pre: got JTs, flops well..lets take a shot.
Flop: 2 pair…ooooooo…lets try to induce a moronic shove..I thought this was plausible b/c he raise pre then checked to me on the flop
Turn: I see the Q, and I immediately think ohh shit AK…I should prolly check, then I got a buddy of mine railing me and he is like GL man I think u can get all his chips here…so I bet and bam he insta-shoves..I told my buddy damn that was fast and he said looks good to me 🙂 So I call. Our villain shows K9o.
My buddy is just shocked telling me WOW and that he is sorry. He plays a few stakes above me and he said iho it looked like a draw, which imo donks do shove with draws but deep ehhhhhh not so much. I told him my initial thought was check to get to showdown and avoid a big pot with some hands that just got there.
I dunno what it is, but I just expect to lose everytime I get my chips in, and in my gut I was like ahhh damn I should check, then when he shoved I was like ahhhh folding would suck.
I know when stacks are low and when all you can do is shove or fold that the results are all relative. It doesnt bother me getting binked out by a shitter hand pre. But when this happens Im like UGH! It still looks like I play like shit 🙁
I think you played it fine….I'd bet a lil more on flop and turn but don't think I'm ever finding the fold button here as ugly as it is against his jam.
July 3, 2010
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I'd jam pre.
Not only do you flop well if called and increase your stack by 17% if he folds but you've now planted the seed of doubt to make him reluctant to raise you in blind vs. blind spots.
Being new to the table means you should be given credit for a decent hand here almost always.
FkCoolers said:
I'd jam pre.
Not only do you flop well if called and increase your stack by 17% if he folds but you've now planted the seed of doubt to make him reluctant to raise you in blind vs. blind spots.
Being new to the table means you should be given credit for a decent hand here almost always.
fudged up my edit….clicked quote by mistake…look below
FkCoolers said:
I'd jam pre.
Not only do you flop well if called and increase your stack by 17% if he folds but you've now planted the seed of doubt to make him reluctant to raise you in blind vs. blind spots.
Being new to the table means you should be given credit for a decent hand here almost always.
AHHHH!! You are the second person to tell me to jam pre. I'll be hoenst, jamming pre looks AWESOME but I would not see this in realtime tbh! My buddy jimbottt or jbk2 told me to jam it pre. Then he was like so what if he calls, you got JTs baby. You are flopping something…lol
He was trying to make me feel better
July 3, 2010
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Haha. That's how I viewed it, too. Hell if you don't at least pick up a back door draw with the 2nd best hand in internet poker.
KQ is the online nizzles, obviously…
July 3, 2010
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Yeah. Brand new to table you will be given a ton of respect by competent people and his calling range has to be super narrow. He doesn't have the goods that much here – it's 6 max blind vs. blind.
In my mind it's not a very tough shove to make.
I don't think flatting is that good here. He's weak a ton here. Even if he raised with something like A9/AT do you think he feels comfortable calling?
Yeah b/c if I choose to 3 bet I am almost committing myself. Might as well shove and put him to the test. Damn! I shoulda done that. Most of my friends say im too aggro in bad spots, but this is a great spot for it…DAMN IT!
Like I said I would not see this spot is in real-time
im pretty sure jamming pre with 30bb is terrible
kidgolfer said:
im pretty sure jamming pre with 30bb is terrible
my thoughts as well. i think ur play was great. i like ur initial thought on flop with bet sizing to induce, just a terrible turn. JTs flops well, u were just coolered in the hand. i think ur being results oriented. the turn was indeed ugly as some st8s and better two pr hands got there and i can see a check for pot control as mentioned. but betting for value is good as well as drwing hands are likely stayiing in or doing something crazy to win pot. if stacks were in the 15 -22bb range i can understand shoving but 30bb with a hand that flops well it would indeed be a bad play imo.
bjizz
i'm with wein, i think you played it fine. and i like the flop sizing. just because he happened to have a double gutter and got there doesn't make the sizing bad. this flop really isn't that drawy so there really isn't much of a need to bet bigger.
the turn is gross, although he can have KQ/KJ/KT/J9/T9/Q9 and maybe even 99. nh, ul.
Thx for all the replies guys…The biggest concern of mine was wondering if any1 would check the turn and ultimately get away pending the bet on the river from our villain
July 3, 2010
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kidgolfer said:
im pretty sure jamming pre with 30bb is terrible
Disagree. It's based on gameflow, not in a vacuum. SB vs. BB how many times do you think we're actually getting raised by a real hand? And of those, how many times is it a hand good enough to call a 30 bb shove? It's like this…
A very small percentage of the time we shove and get called. Of those, we're likely to be 50/50 almost every time.
A large percentage of the time he folds and we increase our stack by 17%. We also now assume temporary control of the table because we've just sat and jammed our 2nd hand there. This is how you move tables and not slowly bleed away chips.
If I'd been sitting at this table for a long time I probably do flat. But I haven't been. So I jam and choose to win the pot easily since he can't call a 30 bb shove with anything less than 99 or TT and feel ok with it. And he just isn't going to have that enough times for me to care.
yeah shoving is hardly terrible. it's most definitely +EV.
I agree with the TPE Pros, and not because they are godly…although subconsciously that may play a factor i haven't decided yet lol.
I say so because its a 3.30 tourney so i assume hes a donk, and his shove is pretty big, and no donk is shoving a made hand there like AK or K9 unless there was a FD, they are more liable to do something silly like, c/c c/c, then overshove river. And I think the likelihood of him check calling with a flopped set are small with such a coordinated broadway board, i'd expect a check/min-raise with those hands on the flop. In my experience playing these micro MTTs, an overshove to the pot is always an overpair on a board of low cards, a naked Ace high flush draw on monochrome boards, and on coordinated broadway boards like this its almost always an overvalued combo-draw like KQ, Q9, maybe AQs. Q10 also makes sense there which would suck for you, but card elimination makes that unlikely.
So, eliminating flopped sets, and made straights, which i don't think are in his range, while including Q10 in his range, you are still a 55% favorite in the hand and are getting 2:1 on your money, so do what i do, snap call, watch an A or 7 peel on the river, then go to the bathroom and smoke 4 bowls while crying on the floor.
Of course my theory is predicated on eliminating sets and str8s from his range, so if i'm wrong about that and have been talking myself into making bad calls in these spots let me know so i can plug that leak.
oh also, i <3 shoving with suited connectors and PPs here all day bc i come from turbo sngs and take guaranteed +EV spots over mucking up a hand post-flop and going broke bc i dont know how to play post-flop, possibly another leak of mine?
July 3, 2010
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Oddsdntapply said:
oh also, i <3 shoving with suited connectors and PPs here all day bc i come from turbo sngs and take guaranteed +EV spots over mucking up a hand post-flop and going broke bc i dont know how to play post-flop, possibly another leak of mine?
lol… yeah. Not knowing how to play post-flop poker counts as a leak 🙂
FkCoolers said:
Oddsdntapply said:
oh also, i <3 shoving with suited connectors and PPs here all day bc i come from turbo sngs and take guaranteed +EV spots over mucking up a hand post-flop and going broke bc i dont know how to play post-flop, possibly another leak of mine?
lol… yeah. Not knowing how to play post-flop poker counts as a leak 🙂
Yeah def prefer more post flop play that just shove/fold…or shove/ make donk call…or fold when I should have shoved…yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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