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September 8, 2016
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Hi everyone,
I have a question regarding short stack play. Yesterday I arrived to a new table in a 10$ freeze on PS and got dealt JQs. I decided to just open jam my 20’bbs because it’s a +EV move. Assuming we don’t have any reads/notes/history, would my following reasoning be OK?
After looking at Nash equilibrium I learned we can shove +/- 11% or 55+,A9s+, A5s, AJo+, TJs+, QTs assuming everyone plays optimal strategy. I am trying to figure the best strategy in these kind of situation and thought about the following:
Shove the mid part of our range (most but not all of the time)and just 2-2,25x opening the top part + bluff part of our range.
To clarify, we open jam the mid part of our +ev Shoving range( AJo, A9s-AJs,A5, 55-88, TJs, JQs, KJs, KTs, KQ’s), most of the time. I assume the shorter our stack gets on BB scale, the more often we are inclined to shove the mid part of our range.
This brings me to the following questions:
1. Is my assumption correct that the shorter our stack gets on a 12-20BB scale, the more often we should shove the mid part of our rang?
2. What would be +/- the biggest stack size (in terms of BB’s) we would be shoving here (at least some % of the time) instead of just opening, given the circumstances below in which we don’t have any additional information, and in which no ICM considerations prevelant?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts/help!
PokerStars Hand #161454939865: Tournament #1723875712, $10+$1 USD Hold’em No Limit – Level X (250/500) – 2016/11/15 15:23:05 ET
Table ‘1723875712 9’ 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: UTG(9080 in chips)
Seat 2: HERO (9940 in chips)
Seat 3: MP(8881 in chips)
Seat 4: HIJ(24027 in chips)
Seat 5: CO(13226 in chips)
Seat 6: BTN (22945 in chips)
Seat 7: SB (10108 in chips)
Seat 8: BB (9702 in chips)
Everyone posts the ante 50
SB: posts small blind 250
BB: posts big blind 500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO: [Qh Jh]
UTG: folds
HERO: raises 9390 to 9890 and is all-in
December 30, 2015
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From UTG +1 Q
J is near the bottom of my open range from that stack size and position, readless at a new table The value is in seeing the flop IMO. I might jam this BvB, or maybe from the CU or Button with 14BB, but with 20BB I’m looking to see a flop. If I miss I’m still trying to win by play my position’s range, depending on board texture and how the action goes.
I don’t think I have an open-jamming range from UTG+1 with 20BB. Leak? Anything I’m opening is already strong and I’m never jamming KK+. I guess it is still hard to exploit this if I am jamming TT-QQ and AKo some of the time. WDYT? For me, 17BB is the start of my open-jamming range and at 14BB just about everything is going in that is strong enough to play from UTG+1.
September 8, 2016
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@MovieFX: I was never open-jamming 20BB eff either in these kind of spots. Since analysis of my database shows that I am not playing the shortstack situations very well I am trying to adjust my strategy and increase my shortstack win rate BB/100 hands.
My thought was that if we shove the mid part plus indeed a % of the top pair of our range we aren’t going to be exploited in these situations. Especially at though tables. If we would just open 2-2,25x UTG we would leave room to exploit us.
December 30, 2015
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improvementss said
@MovieFX: […] If we would just open 2-2,25x UTG we would leave room to exploit us.
I don’t see how. Any open from early position off 20BB should be strong. Most of the time we are jamming over a 3-bet and people should know this. I might fold AQ in some situations but I’m going with AK, QQ+ 100% if I get 3-bet or shoved on from any position. Probably JJ too, but depends on reads. For example, I tend to respect a SB shove over my UTG open. Blocking AJ I probably assume the range is AQ+, QQ+. Might be tight.
I’m also not sure an EP shove range needs to be balanced for similar reasons. I’m just never shoving as a bluff from UTG+1 ever. I might hope I don’t get called by better if I shove something like ATs off 14BBs, but I’m also expecting to have the best hand a lot of the time since it would be hard for others to call with less than AK and I block an A, so JJ-KK is a bigger concern and pairs aren’t easy to get either. Of course what I shove depends on my stack size as I mentioned in my last reply. Plus, gatta look left and see what stacks might gamble and how the table is flowing. I just think UTG shove decisions are pretty easy compared to BTN vs BB, for example (in terms of how wide the range can be based on something like nash ranges)
May 1, 2016
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I don’t hate a fold here. Position is bad, and I would hate to raise/fold because of losing all the post-flop calue QJs has, and I would hate to raise/call because I don’t like calling it off in a race situation at best. From this position, I think a fold is best.
However, if you are going to play it, I think you should be jamming.
December 30, 2015
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However, if you are going to play it, I think you should be jamming.
Better hope I never call you then 😉 Plus, you make me play correctly.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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This brings me to the following questions:
1. Is my assumption correct that the shorter our stack gets on a 12-20BB scale, the more often we should shove the mid part of our rang?
2. What would be +/- the biggest stack size (in terms of BB’s) we would be shoving here (at least some % of the time) instead of just opening, given the circumstances below in which we don’t have any additional information, and in which no ICM considerations prevelant?
1. Yes, in general. The middle part of your range gets wider, though, as the Nash shoving range gets wider with shorter stacks. It’s also harder to raise-fold as you get shorter since you give yourself better odds, so your raise-folding hands have to get trashier and hands that would previously be raise-folds become shoves.
However, this approach is mostly valuable in later positions – in EP it’s hard to make this viable because the middle part of your range that you can actually shove is so narrow, and it’s pretty face-up that you never have strong hands here. People probably aren’t going to be calling super correctly in this spot but I think the EV of having a polarized opening range and a condensed jamming range here is significantly lower than just open-raising everything and then adapting versus future action. On the contrary, in later position I think the split-range strategy is great, and there are a lot of ways to examine this using HRC.
2. I would never open-shove more than about 15bb in EP, honestly. I think in almost every case at this stack size you can achieve greater EV by giving yourself more options here vs 3-bets or flat-calls than you can by shoving, and you also give yourself the ability to VPIP more hands. There is merit to simplifying our strategy in order to more efficiently execute a Nash approach when in EP, but if we’re choosing between a minraising strategy allowing us to open ~15% and a shoving strategy allowing us to shoving ~11% then I think the former is better, especially because it allows us more opportunities to make exploitative adaptations versus specific opponents when they 3-bet us or flat-call us preflop.
So in summary, I would just minraise here. 🙂
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