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February 3, 2013
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I had just regisetered i think this was the 2nd hand delt to me, I felt like villan is going to play any of his pockets 22-AA way maybe A8 maybe this is a bit to lose to be in his range?
it is the big $5.50 and i have seen many crazy things in the first few levels of this tournament... that being said should this always be a fold or do we rip it in here and if were beat move on to the next one.
PokerStars - $5+$0.50|15/30 NL - Holdem - 9 players Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com UTG+1: 6,895.00 UTG+2: 2,305.00 MP: 3,195.00 Hero (MP+1): 3,000.00 CO: 2,645.00 BTN: 2,605.00 SB: 3,390.00 BB: 5,830.00 UTG: 3,135.00 SB posts SB 15.00, BB posts BB 30.00 Pre Flop: (pot: 45.00) Hero has Jc Js fold, fold, UTG+2 raises to 90.00, fold, Hero raises to 330.00, fold, BTN calls 330.00, fold, fold, UTG+2 calls 240.00 Flop: (1035.00, 3 players) 4h 8s 3c UTG+2 checks, Hero bets 510.00, BTN raises to 2,275.00 and is all-in, fold, Hero ?????
January 22, 2013
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call and hope he has 9's or 10's
January 27, 2013
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I think your 3 bet to 330 is to high… i would of raised to like 240…. just to keep the pot smaller.
The player on the button flat calls your 3 bet so i would put him on a range of smaller pairs and or
broadway cards maybe ace queen at the top of his range. when the flop comes and hes shoves to your
c-bet i think that you have the best hand cuz he wouldnt be doing that with a set so i think your fine.
Since it is the start of the tournament i personally think that keeping the pot smaller in these situations
is better …. maybe adjust your bet sizing.
May 30, 2012
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I diff think your 3bet was too big. Like GM said, 240, then the btn FLATS……….lets remember that. Flop comes out…….. why bet before letting the btn to act? It's a pretty good board for out hand, why not play some pot control and see what he does…………. By you betting, you allow him to 3bet you, and your question is NOW WHAT? With the way you play it. I JAM all day in this spot. ………. Especially in this kind of tourney, so many bad players. If he has AA, KK, QQ………. he could have 44, 33 or 88………. Oh well, on to the next one if he does……………
June 3, 2012
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Preflop, I don't like 3betting JJ against an early position raiser pre-ante. It's not terrible as a lot of $5 buy-in players are gonna be playing really poorly, but what is your plan if UTG+2 throws in a 4bet? If the BTN cold 4bets instead of flatting? More often than not, we are turning JJ into a bluff by 3betting here as a decent player will fold many of the hands we are ahead of, and not fold the hands that are beating us.
On the flop, this dude cold called your 3bet, so he probably has a pocket pair of some sort, could be bad and set mining any pair, or he could've just flatted QQ,KK,AA. You've repped a big hand and he called you pre, now he's ripping over you post. I'd say maybe 5% of the time he has 99-TT and the other 95% you're looking at QQ+ or a set and the bust out pop up that follows. This is a pretty abusrd spot for someone to be making a move on you, you have to dump this here.
Note: If villain is playing badly enought to cold call 33/44/88 with action behind him, why would we assume he's going to play postflop correctly?
January 14, 2013
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I think this early flatting 88 from the button isnt too terrible. If there is a 4bet he can always fold.
Since the board is so unconnected he is doing this with complete air or a set. I think some players would do this with 99 and TT as mentioned above, and if the player is really bad he could have A8s. It's so likely that he turns over a set or QQ, I think its too early to really call this, just fold and move on. I'd have to bet that more money and tournaments are lost with JJ than any other hand just because of the marginality of it.
January 22, 2013
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GerardMiguel said:
I think your 3 bet to 330 is to high… i would of raised to like 240…. just to keep the pot smaller.
The player on the button flat calls your 3 bet so i would put him on a range of smaller pairs and or
broadway cards maybe ace queen at the top of his range. when the flop comes and hes shoves to your
c-bet i think that you have the best hand cuz he wouldnt be doing that with a set so i think your fine.
Since it is the start of the tournament i personally think that keeping the pot smaller in these situations
is better …. maybe adjust your bet sizing.
we should be doing things because of EV not axioms, if they are calling way too wide pre when we 3 bet (which people likely will) and we are expecting to take the flop down a lot with cbets (which we likely will) and have a hand that often is going to like the flop and not mind being called much ( which this hand likely will) then why do we want it to be smaller pre? for people to make smaller mistakes? this logic is backwards.
If your doing it to balance your 3 betting range with weaker hands and give yourself a better price on taking the pot down pre, fine. But that’s not what you are indicating.
I’m all for conflict avoidance when it’s marginal, but you have an extremely stronng hand there is nothing inheritly wrong with building big pots with big value hands because we are increasing the value we can collect on later streets. What is important is that we know why we are doing this. Why we want to keep pots small in spots, why we don’t in some spots. Just using default axioms just misses the complexity of a situation. Yes it may be correct some of the time, maybe even a lot but that still is flawed at some level.
January 22, 2013
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P-aire 146 said:
I diff think your 3bet was too big. Like GM said, 240, then the btn FLATS……….lets remember that. Flop comes out…….. why bet before letting the btn to act? It’s a pretty good board for out hand, why not play some pot control and see what he does…………. By you betting, you allow him to 3bet you, and your question is NOW WHAT? With the way you play it. I JAM all day in this spot. ………. Especially in this kind of tourney, so many bad players. If he has AA, KK, QQ………. he could have 44, 33 or 88………. Oh well, on to the next one if he does……………
wait so you want to check to an IP cold caller on an 8 high board why? to check raise? check call? Just saying pot control with no plan is so leaky and will lead you to getting into spots on later streets where you will have no idea what his range actually looks like. The more often you find yourself in those spots the more likely you will be making big mistakes
i love how the only time a range preflop caller on the button has is only talking about the times we are crushed, can we talk about his overall range please? what does a spazzy play seem indicitive of? also we don't need to be massively ahead equity wise given the pot is so big our odds aren't half bad.
And sorry but please dont say i jam all day in this spot and if he has it he has it, that is really ignoring what we need to be evaluating in spots like this. It may be exactly what i would do as well, but there is a lot more logic that needs to go into it then this
January 22, 2013
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watch4sharx said:
I think this early flatting 88 from the button isnt too terrible. If there is a 4bet he can always fold.
Since the board is so unconnected he is doing this with complete air or a set. I think some players would do this with 99 and TT as mentioned above, and if the player is really bad he could have A8s. It’s so likely that he turns over a set or QQ, I think its too early to really call this, just fold and move on. I’d have to bet that more money and tournaments are lost with JJ than any other hand just because of the marginality of it.
the first part of this is fine, the middle part is somewhat close he could have draws on this board we can't rule that out and to say at what % we want to discount it or not is silly bc its impossible to “know” the one thing i take issue with is “oh JJ is so marginal” we aren't just playing our hand we are playing against a range and yes against some ranges we are crushed, others we can be ahead a good bit or crushing so the hand itself isnt important it is the range we are playing against and how our hand does against that range
January 22, 2013
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Julius187 said:
Preflop, I don’t like 3betting JJ against an early position raiser pre-ante. It’s not terrible as a lot of $5 buy-in players are gonna be playing really poorly, but what is your plan if UTG+2 throws in a 4bet? If the BTN cold 4bets instead of flatting? More often than not, we are turning JJ into a bluff by 3betting here as a decent player will fold many of the hands we are ahead of, and not fold the hands that are beating us.
On the flop, this dude cold called your 3bet, so he probably has a pocket pair of some sort, could be bad and set mining any pair, or he could’ve just flatted QQ,KK,AA. You’ve repped a big hand and he called you pre, now he’s ripping over you post. I’d say maybe 5% of the time he has 99-TT and the other 95% you’re looking at QQ+ or a set and the bust out pop up that follows. This is a pretty abusrd spot for someone to be making a move on you, you have to dump this here.
Note: If villain is playing badly enought to cold call 33/44/88 with action behind him, why would we assume he’s going to play postflop correctly?
this is god awful sorry. If we aren't 3 betting JJ what the hell is your 3 betting range? I'm fine in the idea of trying to play smaller pots IP early more and being more aggressive in antes but to pass up on a highly +EV spot to 3 bet is just insane. More so on bigger sites like stars where you need to build a big stack generally to have a chance to make any bit of a deep run. If we are just flatting basically everything here we are letting people realize their equity against us so cheaply and opening ourselves up to having a strong absolute value hand postflop where we need to start guessing what their range is with no idea of their range bc it is likely starting out so wide.
Also just because we are 3 betting doesn't mean we are turning our hand into a bluff. Again see above for my rant about axioms guiding poker, but it isnt a bluff!!! We have freaking JJ!! So what if they fold? we collect a pot. There is inherit equity in that. If 3 betting JJ is a bluff then what is doing it with QQ? Is only KK and AA for value?,…. LOL come on man.
your last spot saying its an absurd place for someone to make a move and you fold, i actually think that sentence was the best piece of logic you had in your post. I don't mind folding, just given the texture i find it hard to believe someone is likely to have a set here, a better overpair is unlikely to flat, and honestly i tend to see spazzy plays as not being a massive hand on a dry board likely. I could be wrong, I'm not thrilled to be stacking off, and honestly if someone says ” I feel the field is very soft, im easily going to pick up chips and have a high ROI and im confident in my hand reading and end game im not stacking off in a marginal spot” im totally fine with that. But that simply comes from an honest assement of your own game, hardly anyone here will be able to make that choice better then OP.
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