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JJ oop deep in $8.80 (ignore other thread)
brentd22
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November 6, 2010 - 3:43 am
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Full Tilt Poker $8 $0.80 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t600/t1200 Blinds + t150 – 6 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

hollsballs728 (BB): BB = 26.7, t32077
jcbigonjc (UTG): BB = 30.5, t36654
unclekoolaid (MP): BB = 25.8, t31007
spcman4life (CO): BB = 18.1, t21718
ksmith77 (BTN): BB = 20.2, t24275
Brent2theD (SB): BB = 50.9, t61091

Pre Flop: (t2700) Brent2theD is SB with J of diamonds J of hearts
4 folds, Brent2theD raises to t2585, hollsballs728 calls t1385

Flop: (t6070) 4 of diamonds 2 of diamonds K of diamonds (2 players)
Brent2theD bets t2785, hollsballs728 raises to t5570, Brent2theD calls t2785

Turn: (t17210) Q of hearts (2 players)
Brent2theD checks, hollsballs728 bets t6000, Brent2theD calls t6000

River: (t29210) K of hearts (2 players)
Brent2theD checks, hollsballs728 bets t8400, Brent2theD calls t8400

Felt like I was ahead the hole way.  I didn't want to bet or 3 bet shove flop because I couldn't give villan a chance to bluff off his stk.

jshilling09
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November 6, 2010 - 4:05 am
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the reason you don't want to 3-bet/ shove flop is the reason you should check it.  You have to think of what you are repping by betting this flop.  Made flushes, sets, AK, Kxd, and possibly the A of diamonds+ random other card.  There are very few hands you are valuing on this flop compared to a really wide opening range, making your range seem really bluffy.  And furthermore, there is a very small portion of your range that can call a raise if you happen to be c-betting wide, and allowing him to raise most of his range profitably.  You can't really extract value  with jacks from this flop by betting, because any hands he calls down with have you beat, unless you turn a diamond.  If you check though, he bets a ton of his range, including a lot of air hands.  I would actually expect him to check back most kings, making his range draw/bluff heavy when he bets when checked to.  So i think leading the flop is the biggest mistake in this hand, then calling the river is probably second, seeing as the only hand you are beating  is the Ad imo.  It is a really small bet, so I don't think calling is completely horrible, but I don't think he is ever doing this with anything jacks beat.

brentd22
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November 6, 2010 - 4:27 am
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Game flow made me feel exactly the opposite.  When he raised my flop c-bet I really thought he was super weak, most likely a draw.  Feel like most of the time he would be flatting flop and waiting for safe turn if he has K.  I actually didn't want flush to come in because I thought I had the best of it through-out.  I also felt the K on the river was a great card for my hand.  It removed a ton of combos of Kx's he could have and tilted his range more to busted draws and lesser pairs.  the only real hand I was afraid of was QdX. 

bennymacca
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November 6, 2010 - 10:25 am
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brentd22 said:

Game flow made me feel exactly the opposite.  When he raised my flop c-bet I really thought he was super weak, most likely a draw.  Feel like most of the time he would be flatting flop and waiting for safe turn if he has K.  I actually didn't want flush to come in because I thought I had the best of it through-out.  I also felt the K on the river was a great card for my hand.  It removed a ton of combos of Kx's he could have and tilted his range more to busted draws and lesser pairs.  the only real hand I was afraid of was QdX. 


 

what draws could he have that you still beat?

 

AQ with the Qd got there, AK did obv. so that leaves him with the AT probably.

 

you are crushed here a lot of the time. 

jshilling09
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November 6, 2010 - 12:38 pm
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No, I agree that his range is weak when he raises the flop, but it is only weak because your c-betting range is very weak.  You are oop though, and don't want to balloon the pot with sucha marginal hand.  The reason you flat his 3-bet are the same reasons you want to check call imo.  I wouldn't look at it as just this one hand, but as what works best against his range.  Your hand is somewhat strong and has outs against most hands, but I don't understand why you would lead this flop when you are repping a super thin value range, and any competent opponent will put you in a tough spot like this with a wide range of hands.  The only way you are going to get value from the hands that you beat on this board is calling, because he is folding any pair that doesn't have a big diamond(better than yours most likely) or any non-king.  So when you bet you are only getting called by hands that beat you.  It seems like he understands that your range is weak here, but he doesn't know how to best utilize this information.  He should be floating almost his entire range here, then taking it away on the turn.  By raising, he reps a much thinner range of value, and you are correct in calling flop IMO, I am just arguing that against any competent opponent and against poor oponents, checking flop is way better.  In this case he raises, but most of the time they won't spew and raise flop but either fold or call.  When they call you are basically ****ed cause you are oop against a range that has you pretty crushed, and when you check and he bets turn here you are in a really tough spot.  In this instance betting the flop may have induced a spew, but against his whole range i think it is way worse than check calling. 

brentd22
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November 7, 2010 - 1:40 am
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Villan ended up having Ah 9d – I agree that I should have checked/called that flop and I most likely would have called down regardless.

jshilling09
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November 7, 2010 - 1:48 am
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yay you won the hand! I was really wondering what he had and I settled on AdQx, but I am glad to hear you wonlaugh  Also you got max value lol where I probs would have gotten lessfrown

brentd22
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November 19, 2010 - 2:49 am
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I also feel that with my style – the image I paint for the villan is a wild one.  People take shots at me when weak and call me strong because they know I 2nd, 3rd barrel a lot.  Through game flow I feel I can narrow my reads on villans possible holdings and have more confidence in my reads.  I put villan on Adx much of the time.  I didn't like the turn card, but I now I had show down value and possible drawing outs.  This felt like a spot in which I was only getting value from bluffs and draws.

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