This is the FT $69 40k, first level. I had 300+ hands on the villain; 11/8 and 3 bet at 2%. He showed 0/3 folding to a 3bet. So at first glance, he didn't seem like a maniac or anything.
If there was antes, I surely would 3 bet this most of the time, but this tournament is pretty easy to chip up in the first few levels, so I didn't want to start bloating the pot with a hand like JJ oop.
He's prob cbetting his whole range on this flop and it seemed too bluffy for me to raise.
After the turn, I put him on middle pairs, missed b'ways, and a few fl draws. Any thoughts of raising for value here?
The river is obviously bad for me, but what hand would he make this overshove with? Beats me. It doesn't make sense to me at all. If he did have an unlikey boat, why overshove after I called all streets. And if he has just an A, wouldn't he just ch/call?
And btw, we played at the same table for a pretty long time afterwards, and he never came close to this line again.
Full Tilt Poker No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t15.00/t30.00 Blinds – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
BTN: t2950.00 98.33 BBs
Hero (SB): t2790.00 93 BBs
BB: t2499.00 83.30 BBs
UTG: t3743.00 124.77 BBs
UTG+1: t2955.00 98.50 BBs
UTG+2: t2835.00 94.50 BBs
MP1: t3013.00 100.43 BBs
MP2: t3435.00 114.50 BBs
CO: t3330.00 111 BBs
Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is SB with J J
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t90, 5 folds, Hero calls t75, 1 fold
Flop: (t210) 8 2 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t120.00, Hero calls t120
Turn: (t450) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t360.00, Hero calls t360
River: (t1170) A (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t2385.00, Hero…
I like to C/R on the flop per previous poster, . you might even get a free turn card after your check raise. As played I would raise the turn if anything for info so you dont end up in that tough spot on the river. He might fold some hands he could have bluffed with, and if he reraises/shoves you lay it down, As I dont see him playing TT or 99 that way.
The river is Definitely a fold for me. I agree that if he had AA or an 8 its more likely that he bets smaller to induce. But based on the action He might have put you on a mediocre hand as you would bet for value any strong hand on the river most of the time, and decide to push you out, Sometimes I have seen this play after one player takes a passive line, But I wouldnt discard him having monster and wanting to look like a bluff.
The problem I see is you dont beat almost anything on his PF opening range, except maybe Tens, so you cant bluff catch him with your JJs.
Another aspect is what your stats show him as he might have also 300 hands on you. was there any history?
Weird line definitely,
I did fold. Even though I lost 1/3 of my stack, 2k in chips is plenty to work with in this tournament.
I had 300+ hands on him, but to tell u the truth, I don't quite remember him. I mean his numbers are 8/10/2 and PFR fr ep of 4%, so he's not very active. I did see during the hand he had a very tight opening ep range, and if his ep opening range is truly this tight, pp combos outnumber unpaired combos by alot if it's 88+, AQ+.
I would certainly expect a player with numbers such as these to ch/behind 99, TT, QQ, and KK after the A falls.
There's certainly an argument for raising at any point, but idk, bad players do weird thing with these ultra dry paired board flops. And alot of bad players have no problems playing for stacks with any overpair to the board, even early. So I just didn't want to get blown off the hand with the best hand, esp on this kind of flop.
It's interesting u say to raise the turn for info. I saw an interesting thread that a gd player started saying there should be no such thing. Either u raise for value or as a bluff. Period. He says there are only two reasons to bet, to make worst call or to make better fold.
Andrew Brokos does add a third reason, betting for protection, but he says that reason to bet should be a much smaller percentage than the other two.
I get your point, I definitely prefer the flop raise to be clear, but in the turn I guess i am saying you bet for value but you will find out pretty quickly if your assessed range was correct. I fully understand the line you took, but in the end it played exactly the way you wanted it not to, which is that you got blown off of the hand, hence, with 20-20 hindsight by not playing the passive line you might have gotten to a showdown (or maybe not 😉 )
one last thought, I know you are not supposed to put people in a hand but in ranges, but the more i look at it when considering his stats, position and actions, the more i think he had a monster (AA, 88) and figured what the heck, i will try to ge maximum value here as i dont expect this guy to raise me on the river.
Anyway great post interesting hand and analysis.
Thanks alot james – hey something really weird happened tonight. I was playing the same tourny, and he shows up on my table. So I asked him in chat if he remembered the hand. At first he didn't. And as I got disgustingly ko'd by some champion in the bb (19bbs), who called my AJo 16 bb open shove with A5s, when the 5 came on the river, (50/461 left), – sorry, but I had to add that bad beat in there, he told me to wait and he'll look for the hand in his HEM.
So he says, 'yeah I got it, I remember the hand now, what did you think I had?' I punched in AA and told him I had JJ. He tells me, 'good fold, that's exactly what I had.' He said he wanted to make the overshove look like he was bluffing the A on the river. He said he read me for a decent pair.
Who knows, maybe he was lying. I doubt it, though – the way it happened, he seemed like a nice guy.
But everything does make perfect sense in the hand now if he really had AA.
Can you believe that?
Good analysis of hand guys.
Originally i was thinking raise for value on flop (or at least turn) as with your passive line it encourages him to lead out again and theres a lot of cards that you dont like to see fall so your betting for protection too (any A, K, Q or ).
Perhaps I'm influenced by knowing the result (I believe him too, if he went to bother of looking for hand) but looking at his stats of 11/8 and its early levels, in my experience people playing tight solid won't spew on river bluff shove with middle pairs, missed flushes. broadways etc but if this was from a player with aggro or loose stats it would be a different matter….
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