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JJ against scary UTG open
joesmoe88
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May 7, 2013 - 9:30 pm
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I just want to check my line on this hand. Nothing too crazy here. Opener is UTG and is playing 30/3 over 30 hands. Given his stats, his position and his sizing its a really scary open. I choose to flat but im not sure if maybe 3bet folding is better here. Either way I call, and so does the button. On the flop, I elect to just fold when he leads into both of us. Does this seem standard or did I play this too weak? Thanks

chigorin: posts small blind 40
lisamp24: posts big blind 80
Dealt to joesmoe88 [Jh,Jc]
slicknick196: raises to 280
t00th: folds
gunnerbruce: folds
DarinTheGod: folds
joesmoe88: calls 280
chigorin: folds
lisamp24: calls 200
*** FLOP *** [Qs,7h,2h]
lisamp24: checks

 

Sorry its the sb that flats.
 slicknick196: bets 587
joesmoe88: folds
lisamp24: folds
slicknick196: returns uncalled bet 587
***SHOW DOWN***
slicknick196: mucks
slicknick196 wins 880

danrose29
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May 8, 2013 - 9:02 am
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Interesting spot i also hate these very big opens when i have jj i feel like im about to lose my stack i think from experience in a lot of small buy in mtts some players are making very big opens with monsters often maybe because they are scared to play the hand post flop so they want to get in more chips pre, but to be honest ive also seen players making 4x 5 x opens with like 66 88 aj a10 a9 which seems odd but it happens, i guess i prefer three betting him and seeing what he does i guess if he just flats your three bet then you may have best hand pre and can can play it post flop see what happens, but if he makes a big 4 bet then i think you could think about folding i probably would i have 5 bet jammed these spots in past and been dissapointed to find out they have monster.

danrose29
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May 8, 2013 - 9:12 am
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ps i think you get more information about his likely holding by three betting him pre plus you take it heads up which is better, it is a little  awkward if he four bets you have decision for all your chips but you may lose less chips 3 betting pre.

In past i have flatted here and someone else has flatted behind say flop 732 original raiser checks so he may have ak aq and i end up getting into big pot with caller who has sometimes flopped set which avoidable spot i think with jj better take it heads up and see how he reacts to your 4 bet

danrose29
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May 8, 2013 - 9:13 am
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to your 3 bet not 4 bet sorry

Foucault

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May 8, 2013 - 6:11 pm
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Stack sizes matter tremendously here. Even so, I wouldn't advise 3bet-folding. If you think his range is really strong, which seems reasonable here, then just play it mostly as a set mine, meaning that you'll generally just fold the flop if you miss. Even if you get a slightly move favorable T72 or something I'd still fold to this flop action. If he checks flop of makes a small bet, maybe that will give you new information that you could be good after all. There are other ways to get info besides 3betting. It really sucks to fold to set yourself up to fold to a 4bet, for two reasons:

1. It could be AK. You may end up folding the best hand postflop anyway, but then again he might check, and even if he doesn't, it'll cost you less than 3b-folding.

2. If it's QQ+, you'd REALLY like to see the flop, because making a set will be really profitable. Instead of giving yourself this profitable opportunity, you cost yourself a lot of chips without getting to see the flop if you 3b. 

Even ignoring Villain's passivity, I'm not necessarily a fan of 3betting JJ against an UTG raise because of (2). 

When you have a hand like Jacks, you have to make a choice about what kind of value you want to get. You can try to play it for its showdown value unimproved, meaning you will usually 3bet in order to win immediately or get it heads up, or you can try to play it mostly for set value, which means seeing the flop as cheaply as possible. This reduces the likelihood that you'll win the pot, but it also minimizes your risk and sets you up to occasionally put money in the pot as a really big favorite, something you'll rarely do if you play it the other way. The choice of which line to pursue is extremely contextual, but against a strong range, you should choose the latter.

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