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October 6, 2010
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Hi,
just edited your topic title – the more information you can provide in general, the more responses you will get.
tbh i would probably raise the flop here – flop bets like this are usually very weak and are very rarely an ace.
June 22, 2010
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The problem you face is that jacks out of position can cause problems. you have a few players left to act and your stack size is under 30bb a raise or a jam could be a problem. I would go with a fold or just flat, but I would determine that by my read on the opener. His raise post flop was weak and I would have taken a stabbed at the pot with a reraise, he could have a weak ace and a raise could scare him off. However, if he called my raise, I fold to his next bet or if he reraises me I fold. I hate Jacks out of position, many bad mistakes have I made.
"Your either in Sheen's Korner or your with the trolls."
Yeah you must reraise or fold the flop. He's gonna cbet this flop 100% of the time where you just called pre and no one else came along. Calling is real bad. In fact its the only no no you could make here. Were you gonna bet if he checked the turn? What was your plan? Try to get in the habit of having a plan. Seems like you were winging it there and spewed a bit.
Idk about raising the flop. If we called with AJs or AQ, would we want to raise the flop or turn at all w our stack? It would be gd if we didn't see the results here.
praetor said:
The problem you face is that jacks out of position can cause problems. you have a few players left to act and your stack size is under 30bb a raise or a jam could be a problem. I would go with a fold or just flat, but I would determine that by my read on the opener. His raise post flop was weak and I would have taken a stabbed at the pot with a reraise, he could have a weak ace and a raise could scare him off. However, if he called my raise, I fold to his next bet or if he reraises me I fold. I hate Jacks out of position, many bad mistakes have I made.
Just a bit of a correction – Hero is in MP1 and acts after the initial raiser on every street – he's in position
Also – I agree about the results being posted affecting all of our thoughts. Just try not to do that next time please:)
The problem here is we never take initiative pre, or on ANY street at all. we have showdown value but his bets seem pretty weak
Initiative #1 could be 3 betting this pre to 2900-3000. unfortunately it would have to be a 3bet-fold if he shoves
Initiative #2 as Benny pointed out – his flop bet is weak to say the least. A8-K are betting more, and if we flat – we are confining ourselves to calling T and R really without having any idea of where we are in the hand
The key here is to take control at some point and put him to the test
i'd take line #2
With our stack sizes and depending on your image, I personally like a 3 bet pre, like to 3100sh bc you may take the pot down right there. You are also going to be isolating by doing so unless you are trying to set up a squeeze from players behind you. On the flop I like to raise here as well after the 3 bet because of what you are representing. Obviously how the vilalin acts pre, will determine where you are..if he just flats, 4 bets, etc. I think with your stack pre by flatting you really are in a guessing game from that point on in the hand. The way played, I think that calling the flop is okay, but his turn lead looks weak and this is where I bomb it. Best of luck at the tables.
June 22, 2010
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hapetimes said:
Just a bit of a correction – Hero is in MP1 and acts after the initial raiser on every street – he's in position
I was trying to point out that if he was out of position pre, if he raised Pre with 5 left to act it could cause problems if he is reraised or shoved on, he would have to commit 1/5 or more of his stack for a decent Pre raise. Obviously, everyone else folded, but in general with Jacks out of position we need to think about these things before acting. Sorry if I sounded confusing. More often than not my communication skills are like Phil Laak. LOL
"Your either in Sheen's Korner or your with the trolls."
ahh i see
If he raises, then we 3bet, we leave the door open for someone to 4bet shove.. i get ya
yeah i'd still flat pre then raise flop as played
July 3, 2010
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Doubt I’m ever not raising that weak ass c-bet.
I probably raise to about 4.2k on the flop and shut it down if he calls since we’ll need to go all-in after that with the size of the pot compared to the size of our stack.
mmfitter said:
Idk about raising the flop. If we called with AJs or AQ, would we want to raise the flop or turn at all w our stack? It would be gd if we didn't see the results here.
This.
Raising the flop is the classic situation where all worse hands fold and all better call or raise. If his bet is so weak, and he's folding most of the time when we raise, then why wouldn't we call and let him continue to bluff? There's no value in raising the flop other than keeping yourself from having to make decisions on the turn/river, which is not a very good reason to raise the flop.
It is tough to say seeing the results. I might fold the turn, but with that price I might call. The Q isn't a great card, but again, getting such a good price I can't really blame you for calling.
3bet pre anyone?
As played, what about calling flop and raising turn. he bets so small that I really get the impression that he is only trying to take a marginal hand to showdown (smaller pocket pairs like 77-TT). I really don't like the results being showed at the end, cause it will have a huge effect on ppl posting here.
maybe the results have skewed our thoughts
hagbard is right that raising flop prices out worse hands, and is a better hand folding there? probably not.
raising flop as some of us wanted to do only serves to make hands pay to catch up – only hands like QJ and KQ.. but without the results would we ever put him on these hands? again probably not
If the player has been raising alot from utg+1'2'3 and I think he could be light I would be RR'ing pre to about 3800(especially if he hadn't seen me make this type of move yet) . If ne's not been raising much or was new to the table and I had no info I'd proably be flatting pre hoping no overs on the flop.
With the flop he does raise light, which could be read as a smallball cont bet or he could just be raising light as it lools like a pretty safe board to make a little more from his A? hand, I would definately be putting him to the test tho by re'raising about 3500 to 3800, if he came over the top I would fold and continue to play with my M of 7 to 9 depending how I played the flop.
Think the problem with this hand is the failure to 3bet pre and take the initiative preflop. Once that flop comes and villain bets out then I think have to formulate your plan here. Either fold, float one and fold to a turn barrel or raise as a stab to define the situation (as Harrington puts it) to try and pick up the pot there.
I’m not saying I have preference for any of the options I’ve outlined since we don’t have much to go on. I might choose either given my read or in light of certain other variables. I think all plays are valid given the right situation.
Probably float and fold the turn though once you call pre. May even peel turn but don’t think we beat anything when he barrels the river.
TPE Management
April 6, 2010
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good discussion here.
<—Learning even when not playing!!
June 22, 2010
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Killingbird said:
good discussion here.
<—Learning even when not playing!!
Agree, a lot of good strategy and different ways to play this hand. Jacks in my opinion are one of the most difficult hands to play in any position.
"Your either in Sheen's Korner or your with the trolls."
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