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Hi Pros
Reading and listening to online pros, many have said that a high ITM (20+) statistic is not really a great stat meaning you are probably playing to tight.
They all say the more important stat is obviously the ROI.
Is there a general (mean) preferred statistic for these two stats? ie?
What is a good consistent ROI over the long run? and
What is a good consistent ITM stat over the long run?
thx
Donskey
EDIT: sorry, I’m no pro! But I figured you can find my opinion useful.
While I can’t give a number for either, ITM% is largely unimportant due to to payout structures used in MTT. Take $4 180 man payouts from PS for example. If you played 50 of the SNGs and min-cashed every other 180 man you played, which is a largely impossible feat, you have a 50% ITM. However, after these 50, you have lost to the rake and are now down $8, a little less than 2 buyins. If, on the other hand, you played 33 of the same $4 180s, and you only cashed in one but you shipped it, you have a 3% in the money and have a profit of $36.8. ITM percentage for normal structured tournaments, meaning not including satellites, is largely insignificant just because the payouts of these tournaments are so top heavy. Like my example, it is more profitable to win 1 in every 33 180 mans than to simply min-cash in 1 in every 2 180 man’s, even though the 50% ITM looks like a sexy statistic to have.
In looking at many profitable MTT players on OPR however, I see a consistent number in the range of 15%-20% ITM. Just remember, making those FTs is far more important than cashing! Your best friend in results statistics, I think, is your FT%. ROI can be skewed by a single run hot for a huge score (example, Jamie Gold), and A 50% ITM player can still retain a negative ROI. Also, the best statistic you can boast of, of anything else, is VOLUME. Volume gives meaning to all of these statistics, and without volume your numbers have no true value.
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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The above is a very good post. ITM 15-20% is generally fine. ROI is what is important and is also affected by what you play and what volume. These days ROIs in the 10%-20% are perfectly fine and really anything positive is good. If you see a guy with thousands of tourneys and a 15% ROI he’s probably good.
TPE Pro
TPE Management
July 20, 2010
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RonFezBuddy said:
The above is a very good post. ITM 15-20% is generally fine. ROI is what is important and is also affected by what you play and what volume. These days ROIs in the 10%-20% are perfectly fine and really anything positive is good. If you see a guy with thousands of tourneys and a 15% ROI he's probably good.
+1
Thx for the replies
Maybe I wasn't clear enough with my question.
There is a mountain of stats of all the winning players. More than enough of a sample size to work out an average (mean or expected) stat for ITM and ROI.
I just thought maybe someone has done this with a program or know of a website that has put all the stats of the winning players over the last 10 years or so
or how ever long online poker has been running.
Looking at one individual or a small sample size doesn't tell us much. There will always be players playing 1 to 2 deviations to the left of expectation (running bad) and
players playing 1 to 2 deviations to the right of expectation (running good), but there will be a “mean” of where you should be and where in the long run you will be (hopefully if
you're a winning player) and where the majority of players would be. (Bell Curve)
Huge scores of individual players will not affect the mean, it will in a small sample size but not a huge one, it will be absorbed in the stats and form part of the final
averages.
Anyway , thought it would be interesting stats to know if they were out there somewhere, but if they are not then they are not.
Appreciate the props to my post, ronfez and twist! Not to toot my own horn, but I do know my stuff! I just have to apply it to my game, much harder than it seems lol. Definitely plan on helping to up the quality of posts here, love to share my knowledge.
EDIT: in reply to above, I have not seen a compilation of such statistics. However, the 15-20% ITM is a range I have found to hold true by looking through many profitable players. And, through proper volume, I would think any ROI around 20% is a very good number. I don’t think over 30% is realistically attainable over a large sample. (I have it! But not nearly enough of a sample size)
Just a note… although i haven't attempted to correct for it… if you play KO tourneys and successfully knock a few punters out for cash then PT3 counts them as an ITM stat. Only came across it when I failed to cash in a heap of KO tourneys at the start of the month, but still managed to register a 50% ITM stat.
October 6, 2010
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itm doesnt really matter much at all imo – it also depends on field sizes in the MTTs, as well as payout structure.
just worry about your ROI and if that is significantly positive, i wouldn't care about any of the other stats like that.
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