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August 4, 2014
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Hi guys,
So Im in the final table bubble of 5k daily on party. 10 players left. Blinds are 500/1000. I am sitting on 20k and 7th pl.
As always, I am playing to win it. Picking my spots and trying to avoid marginal spots.
There are 2 stacks ready to push on my table(5-10k). 1 around 33k and 1 around 16k.
Anyway, I open AJo from under the gun for 3k. it goes like this: fold, flat(33k), fold fold.
This guy flatted me with weaker holdings a couple of times before and gave me tough times at the same table before.
So I thought his flatting range was pretty much behind me. low pairs, Ax, K9s and up.
Board comes 7, 8, J all clubs. I dont have any clubs, but hit top top.
At this point, I immediately shipped the rest of the 17k to get a call from K or A of clubs, or KJ, QJ or a low pair.
Because I thought that shipping would leave him in the dark in terms of my holding. I maybe doing that with 2 overs, over pair, or a one card flush draw. In reality, I think I am ahead pretty often.
If he folds, thats not a bad result either.
He tanks a bit then calls with AQ of clubs and owns my soul.The chances of flopping a flush is really low and didnt want to play scared when I had top top.
What are your thoughts on this hand?
May 30, 2012
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What's up Sir,
I like and believe what you were thinking. You are going to get a call from lesser at times in New Jersey online.
Couple thoughts. Why 3x opening? Especially later stages, I think opening smaller is crucial. I hate jamming flop, it is so much and only getting called by made hands that beat us. Yes they will call with a draw sometimes but not even that often when you RIP that much in. You are losing extreme value in this hand because you are scared of turns and rivers that could complete a draw. yes, he had it this time but most times you are losing value. I don't see any reason not to cbet normal here, 1/3 pot.
August 4, 2014
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Well 3x open because I am opening from under the gun and players are limpy. The point was to take it down uncontested for this specific spot. And get it in with short stacks if they shove. However, this big stack flats me.
And I am out of position now. We had some metagame going on before and thats why I pushed. Another thing to clarify here is that I am not worried about value at this point. If he has a hand but not a flush or flush draw, he will call my shove because he will put me on a flush draw whereas I have a good hand. If he has one card to the flush, I am getting huge value and thats the only way I would risk my tournament life at this point. So I thought pushing has more benefits than playing it scared. He flopped the nut flush and I was not folding unless I would see another flush card on the board. So, I was going to get consumed anyhow.
Now these are more detailed thoughts. I am just trying to understand if I could have avoided this or if this is one of the spots that you will get screwed no matter what. I am not trying to comfort myself, but I am leaning towards the latter one.
May 30, 2012
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Totally agree with Hawkeye about the 3x open. You did that in my AK hand…… Like H.E., no need to do that esp in later stages of most tourneys…….. Esp with the structures we are playing with on WSOP or Party/Borg. We are not 150bb deep. ex. You 3x it. get two calls. Now you have to cbet more. Raise to 4k @ 1/2k bb 2 flats pot 15kish. if you 3x it, 6k, pot is now 22kish The diff in cbetting is 6-7k to 9-11k. Late in more NJ tourney's (any) that makes a HUGE difference.
As you see on the NJ sites, only people 3, 4 or 5x it pre are clowns and moh-moh's.
No need to waste chips when you don't have to. Clowns are going to call whether you make it 2 or 3x pre.
August 4, 2014
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Well I agree with the ideas about the 3x. However, this was not a place to play a pot for me. Yes, I agree that 3x + is too much.
And I gotta say 3x is my limit and I only do it in certain spots. If I knew the table was full of regs, I would go by around 2.25x from under the gun. But as I said, table was limpy and I would be out of position to play a pot with AJ. So I bet the max of my limit, which is 3x.
Again when I opened 66, I was early again. So its not like I 3x all the time. And I know I have to be consistent with my betting, and I am willing to do that with about 25bb and up. Less than that, you dont have too much room to play at the late stages of a tournament. I mean this is what I think.
One more point to mention. I know that in a lot of TPE videos, pros keep the bet size the same. A little over 2x, mostly 2.25x.
But I feel like thats like a bond btw those players. Like all of them do the same because they are on the same page.
We are mostly playing with fish, like you said, betting like 4x-5x the pot. For them to limp to 2x is trivial.
Again if I was at a table with players who I know understands this thing, I would and am going for 2-2.5 opens.
The logic is simple, add up the cbet amount and open. It will be more than my 3x open and the chances of getting a fold pre is higher. If lets say I have a premium hand, then obviously I am happy to open with 2-2.5 from even under the gun to actually play the hand.
What are your thoughts?
June 24, 2014
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3x opening with your stack is ****ing horrible poker – and stop justifying it … you have no idea what you’re talking about .
August 4, 2014
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nonsimplesimon said:
3x opening with your stack is ****ing horrible poker – and stop justifying it … you have no idea what you're talking about .
Adjusted my bet sizing recently. Thanks for your KIND and CONSTRUCTIVE comment
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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nonsimplesimon said:
3x opening with your stack is ****ing horrible poker – and stop justifying it … you have no idea what you're talking about .
No it isn't. It may be slightly less good than a smaller raise – I think that it is, even considering his justifications for it – but it's not a huge difference. There's no reason for you to speak to him like that (not that your tone would be justified even if you were right, but you look even more foolish because you are wrong).
I also don't hate the shove, espcially if you think worse made hands will put you on a draw and call. I think check-shoving would be even better unless Villain is very passive. Gives him a chance to put some money in the pot before he folds. I could see ck-shove and open shove both being better than a small c-bet in this spot.
August 4, 2014
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Andrew,
Thanks for the analysis. Now that you mentioned, it actually makes a lot more sense to check shove to get more value.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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Originally I wasn't a fan of this hand but having read Andrew's analysis, he raises some great points about the flop. I would prefer a 2x or 2.5x open pre, but the openshove on the flop definitely stands a chance of getting called by bad players fairly often. However, for the same reason, I don't think it would be a good play to actually make with two overs or a low pair, so this is a spot where you're banking on the villain's inability to recognise that you're almost never outright bluffing here.
Also, nonsimplesimon, you're not contributing constructively to the discussion. Please don't berate other posters, and consider explaining yourself in future when you have such a strong opinion about a hand.
TPE Pro
December 30, 2013
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NeverAA:
i think 3xing is fine if, as you say, you have a “limpy” table (im going to assume you mean players who will call wider for less and a lot tighter for more). in this case, if you believe your raise goes straight thru and you avoid a postflop spot such as this more often, i'm totally on board for 3xing in this case.
you mention that pros in TPE videos have taken measures to ensure their raise size is always the same. i'd like to clarify and say they prefer it to be consistent, but in times where other factors at the table outweigh the importance of usual factors—say, FT bubbles, ICM spots, having a shorter starting stack, among others—alternative raise sizes may be preferable.
now, save for this exact read, i'm still prob 2-2.5xing off your stack, esp on the FT bubble. anyway we can avoid going broke here is good in my eyes (and making the pot smaller preflop should be a considerable difference maker given your initial stack size). i dont think anybody mentioned the fact that you're prob r/f'ing to a 3bet pre with your hand and given the situation, so in circumstances where this is true, opening smaller means youre losing less if and when you face a 3b. even if this IS a “limpy” table (im guessing one that doesnt actively 3bet every hand), it's definitely worth saving 0.5-1bb (a difference of 2.5-5% of your original stack) over the long run in this scenario.
postflop i dont really love check/shoving, given that a check OOP can whiff when he checks back, and that we probably don't have such a read that we can expect him to be betting very wide on the flop in the first place? my default here would prob be bet flop/jam safe turns (and then feel similarly owned when he still shows AQcc).
All food for thought! 
August 4, 2014
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Hi guys,
Thanks for the comments.
Ginger: totally agree that we are not trying to bluff here. We are trying to make it look like we have a draw and get him to call us with mid pairs or stronger draws. I also agree on not doing that with 2 overs, but this is one of the things we want the villain to believe by shoving.
MovesLikeDarwin: Yes I am actually folding to a 3bet here because I 3x from UTG. This is one another benefit of 3xin in this kind of table because when someone 3bets, you know their range because they take 3x more seriously for some reason.
However, as I said, I changed my bet sizing recently and adapted to bet the same amount throughout, except for the circumstances you mentioned. This way, when I go to showdown with a strong hand, they will not be able to put me on a hand, and the week looking 2.1x something raise will mean something to them. It worked out pretty good and made me realise one of my biggest flaws. Betting big commits me to the pot pretty frequently. Also, cbetting costs more. I realized that I have been saving a lot of chips that are now put to good use.
Moving to your suggestion. This sounds reasonable. We are calling if he shoves as this is already what we want. What if he reraises us…Are we still jamming? (I would lean towards folding)
TPE Pro
December 30, 2013
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NeverAA said:
Hi guys,
Thanks for the comments.
Ginger: totally agree that we are not trying to bluff here. We are trying to make it look like we have a draw and get him to call us with mid pairs or stronger draws. I also agree on not doing that with 2 overs, but this is one of the things we want the villain to believe by shoving.
MovesLikeDarwin: Yes I am actually folding to a 3bet here because I 3x from UTG. This is one another benefit of 3xin in this kind of table because when someone 3bets, you know their range because they take 3x more seriously for some reason.
However, as I said, I changed my bet sizing recently and adapted to bet the same amount throughout, except for the circumstances you mentioned. This way, when I go to showdown with a strong hand, they will not be able to put me on a hand, and the week looking 2.1x something raise will mean something to them. It worked out pretty good and made me realise one of my biggest flaws. Betting big commits me to the pot pretty frequently. Also, cbetting costs more. I realized that I have been saving a lot of chips that are now put to good use.
Moving to your suggestion. This sounds reasonable. We are calling if he shoves as this is already what we want. What if he reraises us…Are we still jamming? (I would lean towards folding)
im guessing that any reasonable raise he makes with our starting stack will be pretty much the same as shoving (altho that does look much, much stronger on his part). if he raises rather than shove, it might make me fold? really tough spot regardless of what you do. notice that 3/3 pros ITT are going broke with your hand on this flop in most circumstances. #pokerisfun
August 4, 2014
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MovesLikeDarvin said:
NeverAA said:
Hi guys,
Thanks for the comments.
Ginger: totally agree that we are not trying to bluff here. We are trying to make it look like we have a draw and get him to call us with mid pairs or stronger draws. I also agree on not doing that with 2 overs, but this is one of the things we want the villain to believe by shoving.
MovesLikeDarwin: Yes I am actually folding to a 3bet here because I 3x from UTG. This is one another benefit of 3xin in this kind of table because when someone 3bets, you know their range because they take 3x more seriously for some reason.
However, as I said, I changed my bet sizing recently and adapted to bet the same amount throughout, except for the circumstances you mentioned. This way, when I go to showdown with a strong hand, they will not be able to put me on a hand, and the week looking 2.1x something raise will mean something to them. It worked out pretty good and made me realise one of my biggest flaws. Betting big commits me to the pot pretty frequently. Also, cbetting costs more. I realized that I have been saving a lot of chips that are now put to good use.
Moving to your suggestion. This sounds reasonable. We are calling if he shoves as this is already what we want. What if he reraises us…Are we still jamming? (I would lean towards folding)
im guessing that any reasonable raise he makes with our starting stack will be pretty much the same as shoving (altho that does look much, much stronger on his part). if he raises rather than shove, it might make me fold? really tough spot regardless of what you do. notice that 3/3 pros ITT are going broke with your hand on this flop in most circumstances. #pokerisfun
Agreed. This will always be a tough hand to play when you see resistance and without the Ac 🙂 Thanks for all the comments though. At least now I know I did not really screw up 🙂
November 4, 2013
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Nice thread NeverAA, I learned from it.
It is not totally bad and your humility factor is great.
August 4, 2014
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Thanks a lot DerSchwartz. I am really amazed by the synergy btw people on this site. All the guys are cool and humble and trying to help eachother.
September 14, 2014
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Very intresting thread.
So basically on a limpy table you'd want to make it a bit bigger then the average sizing, that's something i never knew lol 😛
October 6, 2010
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folding_aces_pre_yo said:
Very intresting thread.
So basically on a limpy table you'd want to make it a bit bigger then the average sizing, that's something i never knew lol 😛
good thread guys.
so the key here with regards to his preflop sizing is the fact that this is utg and if we min raise we are likely going to have to play multi-way out of position?
if we are on the button we are loving the fact that the blinds might be flat happy, correct?
September 14, 2014
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yeah if the blinds are flat happy , that’s a good thing as they’ll be putting in their money with the worse of it!
so if we are on the button here with AJo and we know our opponents on the blinds are flat happy would u rather make it 3bb or less pre?
August 4, 2014
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Hey guys,
Normally, from the same spot, I would have made it 2.25x.
Again normally from the button, I would have made the same.
On this table though, I thought to break the consistency for a bit and bet a bit larger from early position. If was on the button, I would make it 2.25x again to get calls.
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