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Is this a good bluff line for a flop float/turn semi-bluff?
WizardZur
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December 3, 2013 - 7:14 pm
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HPT Daytonna, $1650 buy-in, Day Two, down to 11 players, Final Table Bubble.  Action is hand for hand.   

 

Is this a convincing bluff to you?

 

Day 1 and 2 I had been playing a very LAG style, winning most of my chips from 3 betting light, raising frequently, and playing very few hands to showdown.  However, about an orbit prior to this hand I had stacked someone in a set over set situation where I had KK vs. JJ on a KJ3 board.  This had catapulted me to over 1 Mil in chips.  After that, I had been using my now presumably tight image (the only big hand that I had that went to showdown was top set) and the fact that I was a chip leader to run over the table even more, winning several pots without showdown.  I was now up to 1.5mil and I am the chip leader with roughly 6mil in tournament chips total. 

 

One defect that I have is the “Halo Effect”.  When I'm running well and playing well I tend to become even more LAGGY, sometimes even with a 60%+ VPIP.  If anything I “reverse tilt” where I go from LAG to full-on maniac when I'm the chip leader vs. really become a NIT when I've lost a few.  I recognize this problem in myself, but sometimes it sneaks up on me.

 

This hand took place against Cong Pham, who plays a very LAG style, and is a very successful tournament player.  He was just coming off a major WPT win.  He was the only person standing up to me and was 2nd in chips.  In a sense I want to avoid confrontations with him, but in another sense I want to cripple my only real competition.  He starts with 800K.  His VPIP is probably around 33% although that is merely an estimate as this is live.

 

Blinds are 5K/10K with a 500 ante.  It is folded to him in MP and he raises to 25K, which is his typical bet size.

 

I have Jclub10club in the BB.  I have been 3 betting a lot and I know if I 3 bet here Villian will 4 bet.  I know this for a near certainty based on my extensive knowledge of my opponent so I don't consider 3 betting.  I'm not folding either.  I know there may be players out there advocating folding against the only other big stack OOP, but I will never fold to a small raise with a moderate strength hand like this in the BB where calling will close the action, and I just have insane odds.  Never folding here, ever.

 

Flop is 9diamond2heartKclub giving me a gut shot and a backdoor flush draw.  I check to the Villian, who has cbet every flop he has been involved in, and he cbets to 30K here.  That gives me absolutely no information about his hand but I don't think he hit the flop.  I just sensed that the small cbet was a cheap attempt at inducing a fold.  I also have a gutshot.  I'm not saying I would call just to chase a gutshot but I would float with nothing here given my read and bet the turn regardless of what came, so I definitely flat with a draw.

 

Turn is 8club, a really good card for me, giving me an open-ender and a legit club draw.  I instantly bet 100K and he instantly calls.

 

Now I realize that I made a mistake here bc if I had a hand I would have thought a little more about the amount I should raise and also raising 100K precisely is sort of a tell.  So I tell myself that on the river I will think about it a little longer, really think about how much I would bet for value on the river if I had a hand, and really try to represent exactly what I would do if I was betting for value.  I put him on a 9 at best so I'm betting any river.

 

River is a 5spade, a complete miss. 

 

Now I really have to think about the size that will get him to fold.  I really want to make sure I'd bet the exact same amount as if I was betting for value with a King.  I may not lead out with a King on the turn, but I might, so I think that a bluff here is semi-believable.  I realize it is a dry board so a bluff is somewhat less likely to work, but I really strongly believe my opponent has nothing.  His nothing beats my nothing though, so I HAVE to bet.  I'm not going to give up by checking.  I also want to think about it for a moment, because I'd think about my bet sizing if I was betting for value.  I end up betting 225K, which is what I would bet for value.  If I was betting for value my bet would be smallish, but not too small.  I'd also want to give my opponent the impression that he can call and still have a stack to work with.  Would I take this line with a King?  Yes I would.  With a pair of Kings specifically, I may call the flop bc there's not too many scare cards.  I wouldn't want to 3 bet my opponent off his hand, so I would flat. I would then bet on the turn once a club comes to prevent my opponent from getting odds on a possible straight or flush draw.  I would then bet river for value.  I'm trying to represent a King that wasn't strong enough to 3 bet pre, but is now trying to get value.

 

As far as my Villian's thoughts, I think he puts me on a 9 or a lower, weak pair on the flop.  He knows I'm capable of floating, but I don't do it often enough for him to believe I'm floating here.  I think that he thinks I would raise with a King on the flop.  He would be wrong, but given my aggressive 3 betting in previous hands, he has to believe I would do that here.  Once I lead on the turn my hand looks weak to him though.  I would never lead with a mid strength pair like that.  I think the reason for his instant call on the turn is that he now thinks that I floated with air and am now trying to steal.  I think he calls to see if I will continue on the river.  Once I continue on the river though he has to start to believe that I may have a hand, right?  Yet no hand to him makes sense.  I would 3 bet with a King on the flop, I wouldn't lead with a 9 on the river, but would I really fire two barrels on a float?  Although bluffing is certainly in my range, I would also play some winning hands this way, and my river bet is now 1/3 the pot.  He has to strongly consider that I have a hand here right?  

 

Villian seems very annoyed.  He thinks for about 5 minutes (really) and that confirms my read that he has at best a small pair.  Then his expression changes and now he looks more confused than annoyed, which means my bluff wasn't convicing enough, and is really bad for me.  A lot of players will call if they are confused, simply to see your hand.  Yet this bet is 1/3 of his stack so I just can't see him calling.  Based on how long he is thinking, I now believe he is considering calling with just Ace high or possibly a 2 or 5 as I strongly believe my opponent would snap call with a pair or 9's or better given his tendencies and his perception of my tendencies.  He just keeps talking to himself and looking at me with a confused look on his face until someone finally calls the clock on him.

 

Villian….?????

 

Will post results later.

 

 

WackyJuan
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December 4, 2013 - 11:28 am
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Zur,

This isn't the most convincing bluff to me.  I think your flop ck/call range is this (using Andrew Brokos' hand reading strategy, which I'm currently practicing):

Monsters: set of 2's (he knows you would've reraised pre with 99 or KK)

Marginal: pair (Kx or 9x), pp 33-66 or maybe 77 (maybe the lowest pp worth 3betting for you pre-flop is 88?)

Draw/Air: Ax, whiffs (although OOP whiffs are a recipe for disaster, esp against a LAG like villain) and gutshot and backdoor draws with 2nd pair possibilities (Q8s, J8s, J7s, TJs)

Out of this range, what would bet almost pot on the turn?  I think your monsters would bet 6bb-8bb for value or to induce a raise.  Your marginal hands would bet about the same for value (Kx or 9x) or as a bluff (small pp).  I think this bet smells of a semi-bluff, something that you floated the flop with and the turn improved your equity.  I think it's one of the draw + 2nd pair possibilities.

On the river, none of the likely drawing hands hit (I can't put 67 in your range), so what are you betting 2/3pot with?  Feels like a bluff all the way.  If you had bet less on the f, looking like value, then the river bet would be more convincing as a value bet I think.

Do you think that you'd ever play a monster or TP this way (or even 2nd pair)?  You said you've been very LAGgy, but is the bet sizing you used here congruent with the sizing you'd been using in hands leading up to this?  Did you bet your top set this way?  I think that I'd be going for value with smaller bets on the t/r, not trying to get him to fold with these larger bets.

Later,

Wacky

WizardZur
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December 4, 2013 - 11:51 am
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On the top set hand we actually got it in on the flop.  Pre flop, my opponent raised, I 3 bet my opponent with KK in position.  He thought about it for a while but eventually just called.  I made a standard size cbet on the flop rather than slowplaying.  I'm c-betting with air so I'm definitely not checking and turning my hand face up.  He thought about it and raised.  I tanked for about five minutes and eventually re-raised.  Finally he just shoved.  I think playing with maximum aggression won me more money than trying to slow play; however, the hand basically played itself, idk if there was any way for us both to play our hands that wouldn't involve us getting it in.

 

I'm betting with air or the nuts, in a similar fashion.  I'm generally not one to slow play a monster.  If I had a solid pair I would call flop/bet turn/lead out river for value, which is what I did.  Maybe I would exercise pot control with a 9 or 2 by check/calling all the way down but probably not with a K.  With a K I would call flop, lead turn, lead river, which is exactly what I did with air.   

 

I agree in retrospect my bluff line could have been more convicing but I don't know if I would have played it differently.  I was floating the flop given my perception of his weak range.  Turn improved my hand so I thought I had equity to semi-bluff and I'm going to fire a 2nd barrel on the river if I fired the first one.  The only other line I could have taken is check/calling turn, folding river but that is super fishy to me.  I know there are players who would advocate folding at some point in this hand, and those players are probably more prudent than I am, but that's just not how I was going to play it. 

 

Any takers on guessing what my opponent was thinking of calling with?  I'm not going to tell you whether he called or folded but in either event I did get to see his hand. 

WackyJuan
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December 4, 2013 - 5:44 pm
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I'm thinking he had TT-QQ.  Ace high is possible if his read on your line followed mine.  It's a healthy pot, and he may not give up on it with an A.

Also, I like to review bluff lines without knowing what the hero's hand was.  I think knowing your hand might have colored my analysis of your line and your likely holdings.  I like to look at lines completely from the villain's view, without knowing the thought process that went behind the hero's actions on each street.

Thank you for the post,

Wacky

WizardZur
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December 4, 2013 - 6:34 pm
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Sorry about that, I guess I just hurt myself by posting my hand.  Maybe after some time has passed, and everyone has forgotten about the hand, I will repost except from his point of view, and see what everyone would have done in his shoes, and then we will see if it was a convincing line 🙂

 

I don't think anybody is going to guess correctly what Villian had and whether he called or folded with it though…ah the suspense lol

 

PS thanks for responding.

icantmtt
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December 4, 2013 - 7:10 pm
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I'm just a microstakes chump but I'll throw my 2 cents in fwiw

 

I like the flat pre, no need to waste a good hand raising oop imo.

 

I like the float on the flop, keeps your range really wide.

 

I dont like the lead out on the turn, I think its fairly obvious you have some sort of draw with that card. I prefer checking to see what he wants to do. Checkraise or call if we suspect he's weak. Give up if he feels sticky.

 

I really dont like the big bluff on the river. Just doesnt make any sense. Feels like your trying to force the action and be the big stack bully.

 

I'm guessing he had TT-QQ considering he called such a big bet on the river.

WizardZur
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December 4, 2013 - 7:25 pm
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icantmtt said:

I like the flat pre, no need to waste a good hand raising oop imo.

 

I like the float on the flop, keeps your range really wide.

 

I dont like the lead out on the turn, I think its fairly obvious you have some sort of draw with that card. I prefer checking to see what he wants to do. Checkraise or call if we suspect he's weak. Give up if he feels sticky.

 

I really dont like the big bluff on the river. Just doesnt make any sense. Feels like your trying to force the action and be the big stack bully.

Yeah in retrospect I agree with all of this.  I actually think that if I had check-min raised the turn that would have been a lot more intimidating and one that would have gotten to him to fold on the turn.  But I never actually said he called, I just said that I got to see his hand.   And I will tell you he had nowhere near 1010 to QQ.  This player is a sick human being 🙂

WizardZur
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December 5, 2013 - 9:45 am
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So what ended up happening is that once the clock is called he starts to look even more confused.  He looks me in the eye to try to see a reaction and says, “I don't have a pair.”  So now I'm thinking he is going to fold Ace high bc if he was going to call he would have done it already but as the clock is winding down I begin to think that he just can't help himself.  He's going to call, not because he thinks he is going to win the pot, but just because he wants to see my hand!  Eventually he sighs and says, “I don't have a pair, but I'm sure you have Jack Ten.  Fine, I call.”  He flips over Qheart3heart for Queen high!  No pair, no draw, just queen high!  And the rail went wild.  I didn't know anyone not named Stu or Phil could make a call like that….

WackyJuan
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December 5, 2013 - 9:46 am
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Wow, sicko…

WizardZur
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December 5, 2013 - 9:50 am
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That's why even though I've played against a lot of recognizable names, I think Cong Pham is the best player I've ever played against, and I believe he will do well.  smile

 

As far as my line goes, I think I could have done better.  In retrospect, I think if I had check-raised the turn it would have been convincing.  However, I think 99.9% of poker players are going to fold there…. 

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