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If I ask you the best way to build a bankroll today, what would be your awnser? Looking for some guidance
DarthMaulsbk
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October 14, 2016 - 2:24 pm
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English isn’t my mother language, so it may sound confusing. So, I’m subscribed to a poker course for new players, focusing on 0,25c SNG on Pokerstars, which is very popular here in Brazil for br building (If you look up the field up, it’s like 70% brazilians, if not more). The thing is that, while active people on this course’s facebook page claim that 0,25c 45men is a dream of a field, I can’t be profitable there. And I don’t see myself as being worst than the field, I manage to go deep in tournaments and I’ve had results live (which I used to buy Pt4, subscribe here and buy a new Pc), but I seem to only get beat there. I definitively have leaks there, but I’m thinking of trying something new. For example, I noticed that after 23:00pm here, the micro mtt field gets pretty soft and smaller, making it very easy to get ITM on the big 4,40 for example, but I have my afternoon free and I want to play something else (I’m not studying for personal reasons ultil next year, so I wanna explore the best I can this free time). I Appreciate any guidance and tips. My current br is $85 because I fucked up recently.

The Riceman
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October 14, 2016 - 4:26 pm
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testing

gary170764
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October 14, 2016 - 4:42 pm
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A few years ago I would have given you a completely different and better answer but now I would mainly avoid turbos and most MTT’s if you really want to build a bankroll

 

so it leaves you with SNG and cashgames…now I built mine in SNG 9 man and 45mans plus some freerolls/promos etc

 

I would find a site you like and a game or games you enjoy…having PT4 is a huge advantage..since I got mine I feel its improved me and fill your leaks

 

In a 45 man game only 7/45 get paid = 15.5% whereas in 9 man 33% get paid you could possibly even look at Double or nothings / 5050’s maybe

 

Im not keen on cash games but making money at 1c/2c is very easy as are the 10c 360man turbos

 

yeah upon further refelction I would start 9 man SNG then move to 45 man then 90 or 180 mans and then MTT’s..this is the path im on but I got disrailed too due to health reasons and stick to correct bankroll management and whilst in the learning phase dont multitable to many games

 

also whilst building try to take advanatage of any free offers/bonus etc

The Riceman
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October 14, 2016 - 5:01 pm
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Hey Darth.
First off, can I ask you please not to swear? I am studying for the Priesthood, and I am offended by bad language. Thank you.
Ahhhh! That was a joke! I don’t care really. (Some people might though).
All I can tell you is that in my experience, I wish I had understood BR management way earlier. I began my poker journey by playing in some of the toughest MTT SNG’s in the world… the $8 and $15 180 man turbos on Stars. I knew I was a losing player when I started out; I had no expectations of being a winner as a total noob, yet I started off by playing low stakes, rather than micros! It makes absolutely no sense to me, and the only reason I believe that I began my poker journey with those games at those stakes, was simply because they were at the top of the tournament schedule at the time. And I persisted in playing those games as a loser. For years.
I consider my decision not to start at the micros my biggest blunder yet in my poker journey.
If you were to look at my graph…well, all I can say is…brother, it doesn’t point upwards! I can beat those 180’s now, but my MTT record thus far, and in particular my steep learning curve starting out in those 180’s at low stakes, means I am thus far a losing player lifetime. In fact, if you look at the start of my graph, for the first TWO YEARS, it resembles the trajectory of a person leaping off a building to their doom. Even now, years later, I am yet to recover.
To answer your question, I will first need to ask you a question. You say that thus far you “cannot be profitable” in those 45 man SNG’s. Over what sample size of 45 man are we talking? And you say that you feel you are better than or equal to the field, because you have had deep runs in some MTT’s. Again, over what sample size of MTT’s are we talking?
It is not instructive to compare 45 man SNG’s with large field MTT results. There is simply no comparison to be drawn. But I will say this: a sample size of 1000 45 man SNG’s will give you a better idea of whether you are a “winning player” than a sample of 1000 MTT’s, because the variance is so much greater in MTT’s.
My advice to you would be to always try to have 150 buy-ins in SNG’s, and 200 for MTT’s.
And I would be inclined to stick with smaller field SNG’s like the 45 mans, or the 90 mans until you can beat them consistently.
If you want to find out your true ROI in MTT’s, you will need to play many thousands, and even then you won’t be sure.
I will never forget a TPE podcast I heard with Mike Sowers. He said that it wasn’t until he began playing within his bankroll, and even producing a spreadsheet to ensure compliance, that poker “exploded” for him (positively!), to use his words. An owner of a backing stable (I forget who), who was talking to a potential horse, also said that “if you are playing outside of your bankroll, you are setting yourself up to fail”.
(Understanding of) BR management is one of the great “keys” to unlocking one’s path to a successful poker career, stifling and dull as it may seem at times.
GL,
Mark.

DarthMaulsbk
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October 14, 2016 - 5:34 pm
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Well, I’m actually pretty new to the game. I started studying and playing online with real money in June, reading The Theory of Poker and playing whatever mtt there was with under $2,20. On my first week I got third on one of these $1,10 e received $150 and then more $19 on a freeroll, so, with the bonus, I had almost $200, which was pretty nice. So you can say I got pretty lucky as I still never had to deposit more money being ”noob” on the game. So, my sample on the 0,25c 45 men is 301 and -$13, with the tendency of going down, of course. So, when I say I’m better than the field, I think I mean that I like the theoretical part of the game and for sure studied more than THEM, not that I’m on a pro level. I see players there doing so much stupid plays, and when its against you, it feels so annoying, you start thinking that maybe you can’t be profitable there, and that’s not you, but them the problem. Now that I wrote that, it sounds to me like I’m wrong. I’ll have some replays reviewed with one of the instructors on the course I mentioned and try to at least get to $200 there. It must sound dumb for you guys when I say ”I’m definitively better than the field” when I’m unprofitable haha

The Riceman
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October 14, 2016 - 6:19 pm
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It doesn’t sound stupid at all. As I said, I am still a confirmed loser thus far.

Oh and btw, I just mentioned not swearing to my wife…and she pointed out that I even swear in front of my kids sometimes…which is true, but I consider this one of my greatest failings as a father… I can’t help myself sometimes lol!

DarthMaulsbk
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October 14, 2016 - 8:20 pm
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The Riceman said
It doesn’t sound stupid at all. As I said, I am still a confirmed loser thus far.

Oh and btw, I just mentioned not swearing to my wife…and she pointed out that I even swear in front of my kids sometimes…which is true, but I consider this one of my greatest failings as a father… I can’t help myself sometimes lol!  

When you told me to not swear, before I even read you were joking, I reread my post to see where I swore hah

Going back to the post, back when I had only read a poker book, I was playing the 0,50 45m Turbo e being profitable (115 games and $13 up, not a large enough sample, but still), so I’ve just decided to play 12 tables and it ended great. Its weird since turbo has greater variance and the field should on theory be the same, I may just be better suited for that, don’t know. I know I shouldn’t analyze it without a decent sample, but I’ll be there until I reach a nice br or realize I’m losing.

joelshitshow
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October 14, 2016 - 11:26 pm
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If you’re looking at a line graph of your results, you can expect occasional upward spikes followed by slow, steady declines. That’s the nature of playing tournaments, where most of the money is up top and most entrants don’t cash. So if what you’re saying is that you’re seeing a slow steady decline, that’s normal. It’s what happens when you don’t cash.

Thanks for your post. Sounds like you’re on the right fucking path.

The Riceman
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October 15, 2016 - 7:31 pm
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Joel I think you and I should hit the road as a comedy duo. I set up the joke, and you deliver the punchline! 

Yes, unfortunately Joel is right, it is the nature of tournaments. By default we are usually losers, and the only way we get an upward sloping graph is by the peaks beating out the troughs. By default, our graphs are on the downward trajectory. In the case of the winning player, it is 2 steps backwards, 2 1/2 steps forward. For myself, I’ve got the 2 steps forward, 3 1/2 steps backward routine almost perfected.

Which in fact is a noticeable improvement on the 1 step forward, 25 steps backwards I had going on previously. At the start, I was even 5 steps back, 28 steps further back.

So I guess that is some progress.

I would figure for any SNG 45 person and <, 1000 games should give you a good idea for how you are getting on. 90 and 180 man MTT SNG’s I would want 2000 games, and the number of MTT’s you will need to gauge your profitability or otherwise is so large that by the time you reached it, you would be an entirely different player who would need to ask the question right on over again.

Check out the “Top 10 Sickest Poker Graphs” and you can see, in graphical form, the variance depicted. “latouche83″‘s graph takes the biscuit! Just because someone is a SNE and a 99.999% on OPR, this can mean jack (shit…oops!). Some guys luckbox early, think they are Ivey, and donk it all back. Others, like myself, are of pure genius Negreanu/ Cunningham/ Merson level, yet struggle early on, for years, before being repaid all that negative variance in a short space of time (like, tomorrow for me? Please?).

Tournament poker is notoriously brutal. Even confirmed winning players can go for a year or more breaking even, or losing, only to get it all back plus a significant +ROI in one or two tournaments. It is brutal stuff.

My guesstimate is that after 1,000,000 hands of tournament poker, you are still not a winning player? Only then should you start to even be thinking about getting depressed at your seeming lack of ability. And that is no exaggeration.

DarthMaulsbk
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October 16, 2016 - 12:23 am
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I understand that Poker is a brutal, but lovely game. The problem is my mindset, I have never been the most confident and positive person on earth, not that I’m depressed or dead inside lol. I guess the secret the success on Poker is mindset. I put this pressure of get better and have results mainly because I have dropped out of Law School in 2015 and this year of Architecture School and Poker is the only things I have ever created such interest and love for. Still, I get it, gotta work on my mindset and find my path 🙂

The Riceman
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October 16, 2016 - 9:57 am
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Yeah Darth, I hear you. 

But if I can give you the benefit of my experience for a minute…

It is an extremely dangerous path to walk to be relying on poker as a substitute for disappointment in other areas of endeavour in your life. I have been there, walked that road, and bought the T-shirt on the way down. It was a brutal path to tread, and when it went wrong, and poker ended up not being the answer to my professional woes, I ended up even more depressed than had I never found poker in the first place. 

I won’t bore you with my story, except to say that I had also lost my professional career, ended up in a job/ profession which does not challenge me mentally at all, and is pretty much a dead-end gig. When I took that job, I hoped and expected to be doing it for a year or two… three max., at which point I would re-enter my beloved profession. Unfortunately, when I started re-applying in my field, it was October of 2007…you can guess the rest. The world economy tanked, and I simply could not find my way back in. I could handle it for a while, but it went on and on…for years. I even ended up losing all motivation to be sending out my CV’s. It got to the point where I felt physically sick when I even thought about looking for a job. I became extremely depressed, I won’t say suicidal, but I do have some insight into how someone might end up getting to that point. 

At some point, I found poker online. And like you I read The Theory Of Poker. Before that I studied the Harrington On Holdem series hard, as though I were preparing for an exam. It makes me smile when I read you say that you feel because you read Theory Of Poker you have studied harder than the field, because this is exactly what I thought. But I was so wrong. When I finally got talking to the regs in my games, they told me they thought HoH was way out of date, they were more into training sites, and studying with software, such as SNGwiz. I was way out of touch before I even began. 

Whatever, the thing I would like you to understand, is that after losing brutally for years, I began to be at least able to beat the games sometimes. 

My inevitable first heater had me ecstatic. I remember driving my sister-in-law to the airport; I was on walking on air! I thought I had made it! There was no way the number of games I had won in such a short space of time could be due to good fortune. I had made it and I was able now, or at least imminently, to give up my detested job. To illustrate how I felt, there was a jewellers at the airport. I stopped off there and bought my eldest daughter a silver bracelet! When I gave it to her, I explained that all our worries were over (I was half-joking), and I explained to her that she was now the daughter of a successful poker player. I felt so happy.

For about a week.

The blind ignorance! What a stupid idiot of a man! What an out of touch clueless fool! The heater ended, and I proceeded, over the next six months, to plunge into the poker-graph abyss. It may sound silly to experienced players, it does to me now, but I was absolutely crushed by the slide. Not only had I lost my profession and not found my way out of my hated job, but even poker had deserted me, the field I had put so much work in to, and invested so much emotionally, had proven to be nothing more than a cruel mirage which was now even costing me money once again. I stole back my daughter’s bracelet, and sold it! (Ahhh! No I didn’t!). 

The point being, if you invest a lot emotionally in poker as a potential career, particularly tournament poker, then you need to understand it might well take years, so much effort, so much time, a lot of sacrifice even. And even then, at the end of it all, you may find you simply are not talented enough to make it.

I do not wish to dissuade you from trying to make it in poker, but I feel duty bound to persuade you at the very least, to manage your expectations.

(Oh, and btw, I was only having fun saying I am of genius level…I fear the opposite might be the truth).

DarthMaulsbk
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October 16, 2016 - 7:24 pm
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I understand what you mean when you say you feel obligated to tell me those things, and I appreciate that. And I can feel you when you were feeling like a successful poker player. I remember when I won my first tournament and begun the project how much money I would be making in a certain time, when I had only first deposited for a few days. And just so you know, later this week I’ll be applying for a program on my university for people who seek help to finds their career path. It’s like some interviews and personality analyzes or something like that to help you find a suitable course. 

The Riceman
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October 16, 2016 - 7:48 pm
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Good man. If you want to private message me feel free. Sadly, I have a lot of experience in life in how NOT to do things! I will be able to tell you what NOT to do, and by default, you will succeed!

I am in fact only half-joking. If I were to tell you the story of my life, you wouldn’t believe it.

Suffice it to say, but in a nutshell, to sum it up: 

All I needed to do in my life, in order to have it very easy, at least relatively speaking, and to have a very respectable career and standard of living, was simply NOT to be a complete and utter total 100% pe-noid of the 10th dimension. 

I didn’t have to do anything special…I had done all the hard work…everything was set…it was easy.

Just don’t mess it up. 

It was completely, and utterly, beyond me.

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October 17, 2016 - 1:09 am
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Should be your most preferred style and depends on your bankroll. Whatever you can spend the most time doing is going to give you the best results. if you can handle varience well play tournaments for sure, just adjust your game to what you can handle. 

 

a few years ago i had like less than 50$ and grinded it up to 4k I started with 10c 360mans and 25c 45 mans, then got to 50c 180s nd maybe 45 mans not sure and the to 1$ 180 occasionally mixing in the mtts then all of sudden i binked a mtt for like 2k and then played a whole lot more mtts but i had a downswing/became a fish and now i cant grind only mtts. it feels good to play 45 mans and see it slowly going up. instead of the other way round waiting for a big hit, but once my roll increases im fine with only playing mtts i think.

 

If you have a low bankroll its probably better mix in low variance games with mtts if you really like mtts cus micro fields are huge. but i think 45 mans are the min because of rake! 9 man games have more rake than 45 mans in some cases at the micros.

 

i suggest 45 mans, 90 mans 180 mans and mtts. and adjust them based on how your feeling. but be aware of mtts they feel like they just suck your money away alot of the time but they also did also get me huge scores.

ctrl-alt-destruction
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October 17, 2016 - 1:55 am
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simply multiply the buyin by 40 for HU, 50 forftp‘s Matrix SNGs, 65 for STTs, 90 for 18-20 man, 108 for 27-man, 128 for 45-man, 150 for 90-man, or 200 for 180-man or MTTs 

 

so if i were you 10c 360 mans, 2c 990 man any mtts with 40c or lower, 50c 45 man 50c 90 man, and then just move up or down following this chart avoiding anything below 45 mans thats what i am doing now basically.

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