September 3, 2018
I feel like I have studied a decent amount on pre flop opening, pre flop 3 betting, and pre flop squeeze plays. I don’t feel like I have spent anywhere near as much time on pre flop flatting of an earlier player raise. I realize that betting or folding allows you to make it so other players are forced to make uncomfortable decisions more than you have to. That said, there are surely some times where flatting makes sense. Especially in the big blind. But I don’t feel like I have seen enough training videos on when to flat pre flop. I see plenty of discussion of when to flat post flop, but not so much pre flop. Also, poker software seems to be more shove/fold than flat. I’m referring to more than just you are deep enough to set mine.
Can anyone recommend either TPE training videos, charts or software that is good for pre flop calling/flatting decision making?
Again, I realize that a high degree of fold/re-raise makes sense. But I don’t think you can use that strategy 100 percent of the time. For example, against an early position raise, if you are willing to call with a low pair because of the implied odds of hitting a set versus a premium hand, aren’t you supposed to call out of the big blind with JT suited? After all, you know you are guaranteed get to the flop cheap and if you get hit hard by the flop you might get AA to stack off. On the other hand, you might fold JT suited from middle position against an UTG raise since you have to call the full bet (as opposed to when you are in the big blind) AND you run the risk of someone waking up with a big hand and re-raising, not to mention people still to act after you might run a light squeeze play which will force you to fold.
Other scenarios where you probably just flat the earlier pre flop raise: Medium pairs, connected broadway cards that are unsuited if the original raise was from latish position, ace-rag suited from late position, etc. I’m not saying you want to do this a ton, but surely there are times when the pre flop call is good.
I have snapshove software, but the call option is when to call a shove. It doesn’t address when to call a standard open. Pokersnowie quizzes (for free) seem to focus more on how to play big hands pre flop, and primarily raise/fold decisions post flop. It doesn’t seem to look much at pre flop calling decisions. I am getting close to making the decision to subscribe to pokersnowie for the training game configurator, but I want to do more work on TPE training videos before utilizing both products.
I guess what I am asking is, are there pre flop call charts in much the same way that there are pre flop RFI (raising first in) charts and pre flop shove charts?
Any direction TPE nation can provide will be much appreciated.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
You’re right that there are plenty of situations where you should call pre-flop, especially from the BB. You’re also right that SnapShove is not going to be of any use to you in finding them. Even HRC, which technically can give you ranges for calling non-allin raises, isn’t very useful. This is because of how difficult it is to calculate the EV of calling when there is still betting to do on future streets. I talk a bit about this concept of equity realization in my Getting Off on the Right Foot series. I also have a whole series focusing on BB Defense: https://www.tournamentpokeredge.com/tpe-theory-big-blind-defense-with-andrew-brokos-part-1/.
PokerSnowie is better in this regard, but I still wouldn’t recommend buying it for this purpose alone. Among other things, it’s going to assume much better play on the part of your opponents than what you probably will encounter, and as a result its calling ranges probably won’t be ideal for the people you actually face.
The trouble with charts is that these decisions are so stack size dependent. Hands you should call with 30bb effecitve stacks are different than with 60bb effective stacks.
Hope that helps!
February 5, 2015
rppoker said,
“I have snapshove software, but the call option is when to call a shove. It doesn’t address when to call a standard open…I guess what I am asking is, are there pre flop call charts in much the same way that there are pre flop RFI (raising first in) charts and pre flop shove charts?”
I hope not. It is bad enough that a whole swathe of the pre-flop shove/ fold game is solved, do we really want to get to where the whole game is mapped out for us? You call with what you call with, I 3-bet this, you 3-bet something else, and when you or I crack the game and become Fedor Holz crushing legends, we’ll have our own unique style which will be impossible to map out or emulate.
To illustrate what I’m getting at, a fear of mine which exists in a dark corner of my mind is that there are too many Andrew Brokos disciples. I am one of them. It is like a cult. In and of itself this is fine, and I guess in the scheme of things it doesn’t matter much. But my concern is that all we are going to end up with are a lot of second rate, clapped out Brokos clones all trying to emulate the man and his play.
My point being, we have to allow the space within the game for our own, individual style and ideas to develop. We don’t want everything solved and mapped out and taught to us, surely?
The reason a whole industry has developed around this fantastic game which we all love is that it is so vast, and allows for so much individual thought and method and interpretation. Let’s keep it that way!
September 3, 2018
Foucault said
You’re right that there are plenty of situations where you should call pre-flop, especially from the BB. You’re also right that SnapShove is not going to be of any use to you in finding them. Even HRC, which technically can give you ranges for calling non-allin raises, isn’t very useful. This is because of how difficult it is to calculate the EV of calling when there is still betting to do on future streets. I talk a bit about this concept of equity realization in my Getting Off on the Right Foot series. I also have a whole series focusing on BB Defense: https://www.tournamentpokeredge.com/tpe-theory-big-blind-defense-with-andrew-brokos-part-1/.PokerSnowie is better in this regard, but I still wouldn’t recommend buying it for this purpose alone. Among other things, it’s going to assume much better play on the part of your opponents than what you probably will encounter, and as a result its calling ranges probably won’t be ideal for the people you actually face.
The trouble with charts is that these decisions are so stack size dependent. Hands you should call with 30bb effecitve stacks are different than with 60bb effective stacks.
Hope that helps!
Thanks Andrew. Your series just went to the head of the line of training videos for me to study.
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