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I Need Chips
TheContrarian
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July 28, 2013 - 10:55 pm
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If I were to describe my average tournament, it would go something like this:  I played tight pre-ante and bounced around a level equal to tournament's starting stack size.  Once antes started I found myself getting short and couldn't build a stack.  Before I knew it, I was in that dreaded push-fold mode with under 15 bb.  I might pick up an ante or two.  Heck, I might even double up from say 10bb all the way to 22bb.  But a couple levels go by while card dead and you're right back to 10-15 bbs.  Then you get it in good (or OK) with 77 vs AQ (or visa versa) and wham, you're busted.
This must describe 90% of my MTT's.  Is this an indication that I'm missing too many spots, I know I'm missing some, but how many?
Another measurement is the comparison to the average stack size.  For me, I'm probably below average 75% (if not more) of the time.  Should I be at or above average 50% of the time?  Again, is this a sign I'm missing spots or spewing chips?
I'm just trying to get a handle on what a good player faces, post-ante, as their stack size relates to average and how often these better players spend in the dreaded 10-15bb range.
One last thing is what positive BB win rate does a good player have?  HM provides your win rate as bb/100 (or # of bb won per 100 hands).  
CCuster 911
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July 29, 2013 - 12:11 am
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Once antes kick in a good player should be winning money in nonshowdown pots.  Obviously this is a rpetty general statement but has a lot of truth to it in that its a common characteristic among the people beating the games the most.  Showdown pots have too much of a reliance on the hands you are actualy getting and making, so when your game relies on that you will find yourself bleeding chips when you dont get hands or make hands for a little bit fo time(even over a time of liek 3-4 orbits), which can be costly, especially in an MTT setting(fine for a cash game setting where blinds dont increase).  You should start analyzing your nonshowdown stats, I have a feeling you will be losing in non showdown, which means you need to raise more in unopened pots or even isoing limpers, and 3 bet more.

 

There is one small change in this, and thats in the mciros when you have a lot of really bad maniac/stations at your table.  When this happens you want to focus more on playing your showdown hands to max value(doesnt alwyas mean playing really fast though)

 

In regards to the BB/100 I rememebr trying to poll a lot fo peopel a couple eyars ago just to see what otehr people had, IIRC a good overall BB/100 is going to be around 4-5BB/100(8bb/100) for midstakes.  Obviously smaller as you move up in stakes.  This was like 2 years ago tho so games may be different now on the main sites.

For Coaching - ccuster911@gmail.com - HH Reviews/Leak Finder(HEM or PT)/Concept Discussion

bennymacca
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July 29, 2013 - 4:41 am
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totally agree with the above, it sounds like you need to start trying to win some non-showdown pots. 

 

this might include opening wider in late position to steal the blinds and antes, isolating limpers, lighter 3betting, and the occasional double or triple barrel. 

each one of those gets progressively more difficult, so i would start with just trying to open a bit lighter from the cutoff and button as a starting point. 

Melanocetidae
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July 29, 2013 - 9:59 am
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Hey, how do you figure using BB/100 for tourney only scenarios? I mean when we bust, you go negative your entire stack. No? Doesn’t that skew the result?
(Sorry for hijacking the subject.)

bennymacca
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July 29, 2013 - 11:29 am
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you can still work it out on bb won per hand. 

 

that stat is just not as meaningful as it is in cash games, becasue you can have a good bb/100 figure but still be losing because if you double up in the early stages, you will be +100bb there, but then you grind for ages and lose a flip and its only -15bb. 

 

similarly for the cEV stats, getting 2 outered early in the tourney is like 2.5k in cEV, but you can lose a flip for a million chips that could skew your cEv stats for the next couple of years

CCuster 911
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July 29, 2013 - 1:52 pm
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Also when studying BB/100 alwyas study your EV BB/100.

 

Yes you are right in that we lose chips in every tourney we dont win but taht doesnt effect our average winrate.  That is one hands out of a lot of hands(maybe even a couple hundred if we do good in the tourney).  So een if we lose our 15 BB stack, earlier ni the tourney we probably gained 15 BBs in a hand.  You EV Chips also doesnt go down as consitently as actual chips will.

For Coaching - ccuster911@gmail.com - HH Reviews/Leak Finder(HEM or PT)/Concept Discussion

markconkle
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July 29, 2013 - 7:27 pm
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Melanocetidae said:

Hey, how do you figure using BB/100 for tourney only scenarios? I mean when we bust, you go negative your entire stack. No? Doesn't that skew the result?

CCuster 911 said:

Yes you are right in that we lose chips in every tourney we dont win but taht doesnt effect our average winrate.  That is one hands out of a lot of hands(maybe even a couple hundred if we do good in the tourney).  So een if we lose our 15 BB stack, earlier ni the tourney we probably gained 15 BBs in a hand.  

 Just to clarify, it you play in 100 1500 chip tourneys but don't win any of them, you will have lost 150,000 chips total, which will make you CHIPS/100 look bad, even if you are playing well and even making money.  But if you start at 1500, double up in the 15/30 level, you just gained 50BB.  Now you stay even until the 100/200 level and then lose it all, you just lost 15BB.  Overall, you have a gain of 35BB, which is what will effect your BB/100.  Pretty sure that's what Custer was trying to say, but thought some more detail might be helpful.

Melanocetidae
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July 30, 2013 - 4:48 am
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Yea, understand now. Thanks all!

danrose29
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July 30, 2013 - 1:39 pm
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contrarian i have had same problem as you and ive played a lot of mtts, i often have found myself short on chips as tournament gets to late stages this is because partly im not three betting enough and trying to play value hands which doesnt work in tournaments most of time because the guys with big stacks are often playing a lot of pots and seem good at working out where they are in them.

If you ever watch a replay of a final table of the sunday million you can see this in reality as often the guy with the huge stack like 70-80bbs is the one who is opening most of the pots and playing more aggresively and less probably bluffing more than others and the ones who are waiting for big hands to double are bleeding away and end up going out early in final table.

I did a little better at a few recent fts when i picked spots to three bet light using my tight nitty image to steal some pots and its amazing when you play nitty or tight players just fold to your three bets so often often snap folding because they think you always have it, so you have to three bet more and i guess do it in position when you can so if called you got better chance to win pot.

I have seen some guys who seem to have done well in mtts not playing real aggro but calling often in position with hands that flop well/ok and stationing aggressive players with a pair or so and winning big pots, i guess its important to rememeber that as blinds go up bluffing will increase and there will be more guys two /three barrelling air so by playing more pots vs these aggressive players maybe you can win a lot more chips but ive always been afraid of flatting hands like kj k10kq even in position late in tourny incase im dominated but these hands do win big pots sometimes by bluff catching.

anyway gl and when you start to get short i guess you need to get involved and dont worry about busting as we know in most mtts specially low buy in ones all  money is in top 3 so busting 13-14th or 20th doest matter at al.

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