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how to react when suspecting 3bet/4bet light DEEP in tournament: pre- and postflop line-check

Sen

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June 16, 2014 - 7:44 am

1st hand is from a $11 Deepstack, 9 left. We are 6th in chips, table has two very good regs, other players are pretty bad, especially villain: Makes aggro moves pre and post all the time, bets very high (2/3 pot+) with bottom pair and bad draws etc.

His resteal from the SB was 67% over 228 hands.

I was about 75% sure his 3bet was light and expected to have a hand that plays well postflop vs his extremely wide 3bet-range and decided to flat instead of 4bet-fold-to5bet because we would have position on villain. Do you think this though process is fine until here?

The 1st HH (suspecting light 3bet):

Poker Stars $10+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t2500/t5000 Blinds + t500 – 9 players:

tahs007 (UTG+2): BB = 31.0, t154930
kalivoskilo (MP1): BB = 97.9, t489428
Tamesis1 (MP2): BB = 33.5, t167646
Ze_mMm (CO): BB = 45.8, t229138
Hero (BTN): BB = 35.6, t177773
any2cards4u (SB): BB = 28.6, t143237
Puckjr (BB): BB = 68.9, t344407
JayJay00297 (UTG): BB = 65.3, t326365
AA1000000KK (UTG+1): BB = 35.4, t177076

Pre Flop: (t12000) Hero is BTN with 9 of diamonds J of spades
6 folds, Hero raises to t10850, any2cards4u raises to t25000, 1 fold, Hero calls t14150

Flop: (t59500) 8 of diamonds T of hearts 9 of spades (2 players)
any2cards4u bets t32500, Hero raises to t152273 all in, any2cards4u calls t85237 all in

Turn: (t294974) 4 of diamonds (2 players – 2 are all in)

River: (t294974) A of hearts (2 players – 2 are all in)

Final Pot: t294974
Hero shows 9 of diamonds J of spades (a pair of Nines)

Reveal Spoiler

any2cards4u shows T of clubs 3 of spades (a pair of Tens)
any2cards4u wins t294974

In retro I think I could just flat his cbet and reevaluate on the turn. Should we fold if he shoves here? Just check, when he checks? Or bet-fold/bet-get-it-in if he checks on turn? Was my 3bet-shove on flop bad, even with an OESD and midpair?

The second hand was in The Big $5.50, we were about 160 left, sitting slightly below average but feeling fine because of the soft field. Looking back at the hand I think I should have just waited for a better spot, especially considering my extremely bad hand.

Villain has a steal of 50% from the CO over 214 hands, so i decided to resteal with this crap hand. I've marked him as an unprofitable player over a few thousand tournaments. When he 4bet, I felt like he should be totally polarized. Since he 4bets 75% of the time to a 3bet I think there was a decent chance that he was light, also his sizing is extremely small. Now I wonder if it is a mistake to flat here. Do you think, given his 3bet/4bet % it would be fine to just 5bet-shove?

The reason I flat was: I had position, I got a very good price and I was sure I could steal the pot on a great number of flops (not sure if I am right about this assumption).

Now OTF I think how we played the hand, we have to get it in… – what do you think?

The 2nd HH (suspecting light 4bet):

Poker Stars $5.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t3200/t6400 Blinds + t800 – 9 players

Hero (BTN): BB = 26.0, t166181
Capone_kln (SB): BB = 66.6, t426005
morbus12 (BB): BB = 36.3, t232373
w2k6x (UTG): BB = 115.4, t738810
sratsrekop51 (UTG+1): BB = 16.0, t102704
nuninho_fla (UTG+2): BB = 66.9, t427938
00Schneida (MP1): BB = 13.1, t84038
semza121 (MP2): BB = 38.8, t248118
HellFire021 (CO): BB = 24.9, t159418

Pre Flop: (t16800) Hero is BTN with 4 of diamonds 2
4 folds, semza121 raises to t12800, 1 fold, Hero raises to t28800, 2 folds, semza121 raises to t44800, Hero calls t16000

Flop: (t106400) 3 of diamonds T of spades T (2 players)
semza121 bets t46816, Hero raises to t120581 all in, semza121 calls t73765

Turn: (t347562) 3 of clubs (2 players – 1 is all in)

River: (t347562) 4 of clubs (2 players – 1 is all in)

Final Pot: t347562
Hero shows 4 of diamonds 2 (two pair, Tens and Fours)

Reveal Spoiler

semza121 shows 9 of hearts T of clubs (a full house, Tens full of Threes)
semza121 wins t347562

I would love to here some ideas/suggestions on every street we played, pre and post flop.

I wonder if I just ran bad, but made good reads or if, even given the stats we had on villains, should never have played the hands in the first place. So: Big preflop mistake? And post: Are there better options?

Thanks for your time.

Foucault

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June 16, 2014 - 9:23 am

Have you seen my Bluffing series? I don't talk specifically about 3- and 4-betting but I think it would give you a helpful framework for thinking about these things. It seems like right now you are thinking of it like some big leveling war where your opponent either “has it” or is so light that he can be exploited by raising any two cards. You are both playing ranges, and those ranges may be wider in some instances than in others. The fact that Villian might have a wide range means you can have a wider range for 3-betting him, but it doesn't necessarily make your cards irrelevant. For instance, you should consider that when you 3-bet he'll sometimes 4-bet both with and without AA. You want to make sure your 3-betting range contains a lot of hands that will have good equity when shoving or flatting to this 4-bet.

Hand 1 looks fine. J9o is a fine hand to open on the button, and even against a pretty strong 4-betting range you're going to have 3.5:1 or whatever odds you are getting to call. There's no folding after seeing the flop. Even if he you knew he had AA you wouldn't want to fold. It's hard to imagine a scenario where I wouldn't shove, but if if I ever called, it would be just to induce a bluff on the next street.

Hand 2 you shouldn't 3-bet against a player who is going to 4bet you 75% of the time. From the way you presented this, it seems like you didn't look at his 4-bet stat until after you 3-bet, which is a mistake. I'm skeptical of that 75% number because in a tournament you don't generally have a large sample and situations can vary so much, but if you expect a lot of 4-betting, then you need to choose your 3-bet range accordingly.

ltcolumbo

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June 16, 2014 - 2:58 pm

I would also add that in hand 2, you are 3-betting with a stack that doesn't necessarilly want to be 3-betting (i.e. 20% of your stack) and now you are forced to call a 4-bet for 40% of your stack. So now you are sort of reduced to a stop-n-go on the flop.

markconkle

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June 16, 2014 - 10:52 pm

Hand 1: In addition to what Andrew said, remember that J9o is actually behind the top 67% of hands. You are getting too good of odds to fold, however, especially in position.

I like calling the c-bet if you have deeper stacks. At this depth, your shove is roughly a 2/3 pot raise, meaning he will probably call you with a lot of his draws, and making him fold AK is certainly an acceptable result. I definitely shove. I would probably just call if a shove would be a 1.5 pot raise to induce bluffs.

Hand 2: I think you made a number of mistakes in this hand. First, as Andrew mentioned, you 3 bet expecting a 4 bet with a weak hand. Yes, you want to 5 bet bluff sometimes, but I would choose a small pocket pair or A5s to make that move.

As played, villain min-4 bets, giving you absurd odds. Folding is out of the question. If he open and 4 bet statistics are literally accurate of how he plays, shoving might be profitable, but realistically his 4 bet statistics is probably based on a sample size of 4 or maybe 8 and not particularly useful. I like calling best.

Here the flop shove is even smaller and more likely to be called. Given that you are about even with a hand like AKo, and you are in position, I generally prefer calling to delay the hand. I think you are more likely to get folds from overcards on the turn than the river, and if a third T comes and he bets you can just fold.

Sen

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June 19, 2014 - 9:27 am

Thanks a lot for the insights, guys! Appreciate it.

I like the idea of just calling his cbet in the second hand, however I realized that my preflop play was bad concerning stack sizes and my actual hand.

Definitly going to work on my game with some of the Andrews great videos again.

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