Home
(0 votes) 
April 16, 2013
Offline
Hey guys. I've been thinking a lot about how to play around 14-27bb stack and would love to hear your input. Years ago it was profitably to jam 20bb with any two cards in certain spots – is this still your plan? How many big blinds is too many to bluff shove over late postiion opens? Now some players are only opening into your stack size if they plan to call your shove a lot of the time so the reshove doesnt work as well.
How many big blinds before you stop opening marginal hadns in early position to avoid getting into this danger zone? What table factors and game dynamics does it take you to open your range? Is a 25bb stack enough to open and cbet then fold to a raise or are you looking for spots to reshove over late position opens?
I've heard people talk about Pessagno opening these tiny stack sizes (13bb) and making fancy plays and I'd love to know more about that. I've heard Daryl Jace and Chris Moon saying about playing 10bb-20bb stack more effectively helped their winrate considerably and I'm commited to gaining all the info on the stack size that I can.
Once I get to 14bb I'm sort of moving into push-fold mode and around 24bb I'm looking for spots to stuffy baker over opens but hopefully this thread can help me learn how to play this stack better! Hopefully this all wasn't too vague but I'm looking for your thought process and maybe we can add some hands to the thread as we go.
February 20, 2013
Offline
With 11bbs, I'm not restealing light often, but against the loosest openers I do occassionally.
With 15bbs, I have a small r/f range, especially vs. nits.
With 22bbs, I don't cbet/fold much, but against chronic flopseers I will.
So not so many hard and fast rules according to stack size, but more of a progression.
I have a 15-20bb openship range, but I also wonder whether this is good anymore. Some criticize that it allows villains to play perfectly, especially when we never openship premiums this deep. Against tough fields, is it better to induce with hands like 77/A8s/ATo these days?
April 15, 2014
Offline
There's a great video series from Ben Warrington (Kid Cardiff) which talks about this stuff in lots of detail, and how the game has adapted over recent years. In fact I think I'm going to watch it over again today…
TPE Pro
June 14, 2012
Offline
There's a big difference between 14 and 27 bb, but I know what you mean…
It's a little dangerous to have absolute rules where you essentially limit your options with specific stack sizes. This is a trap I've fallen into myself, because it makes it easier to mass table when your decisions are nearly automatic. Everything in MTTs is situational. There are spots where it's OK to minraise/fold (or minraise/decide) with less than 15 bb (even down to 10 or 11 bb sometimes). There are also spots where it's OK to 3bet jam with 30 bb. These spots are rare, but it's important to keep an open mind.
andinista said:
I have a 15-20bb openship range, but I also wonder whether this is good anymore. Some criticize that it allows villains to play perfectly, especially when we never openship premiums this deep. Against tough fields, is it better to induce with hands like 77/A8s/ATo these days?
I don't open ship 15-20 bb as much as I used to, but still, there's a reason they call them “unexploitable” shoves. It can never be too awful with a reasonable range, depending on the depth of other stacks in the tournament. Deep in a turbo where average stack is 10 bb, your 15-20 bb ranges should change compared to a situation where the structure is slower but you're one of the shorter stacks.
And yes, I think it is better to induce with hands like 77 and AT now that more people understand restealing.
April 16, 2013
Offline
I think open shipping 15-22bb caps your range in a way. If we never open jam QQ-AA or AK then a good player will realise were likely to have AJ, AQ, KQ, 22-JJ and play accordingly.
I think knowing when the blinds go up when you have 30bb is important too as I sometimes skip a marginal open in early position with 30bb, only for hte blinds to go up and through me the next orbit and now I only have 20bb or so and I wish i went for that steal.
April 16, 2013
Offline
How do you think playing this stack changes with the buyin of the tournament and the likely change in skill level of your oppoenents?
Do weaker players generally fold more to 20bb shoves due to attempting to get a min cash or are they more likely to call off the same range with 15bb and 30bb due to lack of understanding of stack sizes?
These are both general statements but I feel they are important to think about despite everything in poker being situation/opponent specific.
April 16, 2013
Offline
Ok lets get more specific. I've a couple of hands from tonights session. Let me know if i shouldnt be using pokerstars boom player to link hands.
Hand 1 – I have 99 utg with 18bb at 200/400 blind level in $4.40 progressive KO
Do you think this is a raise-call? I jammed all in here as I didn't want to see 4 players flat and I'm stuck with 16bb oop in a bloated pot. However this is completely unbalanced as I'm not jamming AK, QQ+ here. Whats everyone think is the best play then? Risk getting flatted by everyone and just open? People don't tend to jam AQ or <88 over utg raises but they may call off if their in late position and think I'm jamming AJ and 55+.
April 16, 2013
Offline
Hand 2 – $5.50 1000cap 14bb with 97s sb v wreckless big stack playing every hand
A player playing roughly 40% vpip opened and folds to 3bets 80% time. I decide to jam here despite only having 14bb. I thought I would have 40%ish equity if called and very rarely be dominated and he would fold super often pre. Is this just plain wrong? I'm pretty sure this guy was raising first in 70% time he had the option. I just couldn't keep folding to him
April 16, 2013
Offline
Hand 3
PokerStars Hand #115211439537: Tournament #897807267, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XX (700/1400) - 2014/04/23 22:37:40 WET [2014/04/23 17:37:40 ET] Table '897807267 164' 9-max Seat #5 is the button Seat 1: Maltaxa (12912 in chips) Seat 2: dias1966 (39080 in chips) Seat 3: fr17ace (51747 in chips) Seat 4: mjdsk8 (21944 in chips) Seat 5: docsboys (49706 in chips) Seat 6: deac7 (110451 in chips) Seat 7: Finchy_III (22418 in chips) Seat 8: aminos700 (28971 in chips) is sitting out Seat 9: 240Rider (41602 in chips) Maltaxa: posts the ante 175 dias1966: posts the ante 175 fr17ace: posts the ante 175 mjdsk8: posts the ante 175 docsboys: posts the ante 175 deac7: posts the ante 175 Finchy_III: posts the ante 175 aminos700: posts the ante 175 240Rider: posts the ante 175 deac7: posts small blind 700 Finchy_III: posts big blind 1400 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to mjdsk8 [Jh Ac] aminos700: folds 240Rider: folds Maltaxa: folds dias1966: folds fr17ace: raises 1400 to 2800 mjdsk8: raises 18969 to 21769 and is all-in docsboys: folds deac7: folds Finchy_III: folds fr17ace: calls 18969
Basically I have 15bb in CO versus a 37bb MP+1 open.. We should be shoving AJo here right?
January 15, 2013
Offline
I beleive that, solely given the information you provided, the hands were just fine as played in all three of these situations.
June 11, 2012
Offline
hand 1:
i r/c in most of the time. esp in a KO as villains get crazy in there
hand2:
about fine as we are live most of the time when called. its a good ATC reshvoe spot with 19-22BB here as he opens ridicoulously wide
hand3:
close as we have 3players left and you dont provide information about the OR. against some TAGs this might be a nit fold. TBH Dont know if i find the fold button here often
April 16, 2013
Offline
Hand 3 villain was opening super wide from most positions. He was stealing a lot when given the oppurtuinty from what I remember but think he was prone to calling shoves with hands like 55 when he would rarely be far ahead.
February 20, 2013
Offline
The 3 hands listed seem standard, though at many tables I prefer r/c with the 99.
A couple of ideas that I've been thinking about:
1. I keep getting stacked (or losing 2bbs on open/give ups) late in mtts with AQ/AK, when I min open to induce and get flatted and miss. I'm considering just open shipping these hands up to 20bbs to avoid this. It would also balance my range for all of the Ax suited and KTo ships I'm making with this stack size.
2. It seems quite accepted these days to lower open sizes to a min raise or just over with 15-22bbs. But people are realizing how wide they should defend in the BB, and fish are induced into bad cold calls in all positions with these mini-opens. I'm thinking about adjusting to 2.5-3x opens on this stack size to account for the fact that I cannot really c-bet my misses very often.
Good adjustments or is this just playing scurred and folding out the dominated parts of villains ranges? Would like to hear good players' general strats for c-betting misses at 15-22bbs, too.
OP- posters here seem down with various converters, but please use one of them. Those PS wall-o-text HHs hurt the eyes.
April 16, 2013
Offline
Some more trouble spots tonight. I played a lot of tournaments tonight so I can't remember all the reads I was taking into consideration at the time.
Hand 4.
PokerStars - $5+$0.50|700/1400 Ante 175 NL - Holdem - 9 players Hand converted by PokerTracker 4 Hero (MP+1): 17.23 BB CO: 26.76 BB (VPIP: 35.29, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 17) BTN: 43.47 BB (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 23.53, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 17) SB: 86.28 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 22.86, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 73) BB: 11.16 BB (VPIP: 14.58, PFR: 13.04, 3Bet Preflop: 7.41, Hands: 48) UTG: 10.37 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 15.18, 3Bet Preflop: 3.57, Hands: 196) UTG+1: 18.83 BB (VPIP: 33.68, PFR: 15.18, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 196) UTG+2: 34.77 BB (VPIP: 15.79, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19) MP: 29.54 BB (VPIP: 26.47, PFR: 21.21, 3Bet Preflop: 13.33, Hands: 35) 9 players post ante of 0.13 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB Pre Flop: (pot: 2.63 BB) Hero has A
T
fold, fold, fold, fold, [color=red]Hero?
How are we playing ATs here with 17bb. The cutoff and small blind have been calling preflop as much as possible and button/big blind seem relatively standard regs not playing too aggressive or playing every hand. I don't want to open and see a multiway pot and be down to 15bb and very likely out of position. Maybe this is better than shoving. Thoughts?
April 16, 2013
Offline
Hand 5.
I decide to shove here and put max pressure on 17bb button stack who just moved to table. This is probably quite bad without reads. What's your thoughts?
PokerStars - $5+$0.50|75/150 Ante 20 NL - Holdem - 9 players Hand converted by PokerTracker 4 MP+1: 30.22 BB (VPIP: 11.43, PFR: 3.03, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35) CO: 17.33 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9) BTN: 77.69 BB (VPIP: 10.26, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 13.33, Hands: 41) Hero (SB): 44.04 BB BB: 14.52 BB (VPIP: 14.12, PFR: 10.71, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 86) UTG: 18.78 BB (VPIP: 15.22, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 6.45, Hands: 92) UTG+1: 44.38 BB (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 29.41, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 17) UTG+2: 27.91 BB (VPIP: 8.57, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 35) MP: 30.45 BB (VPIP: 26.19, PFR: 24.39, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 43) 9 players post ante of 0.13 BB, Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB Pre Flop: (pot: 2.7 BB) Hero has TK
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, [color=red]CO raises to 2 BB[/color], fold, [color=red]Hero raises to 43.91 BB and is all-in[/color], BB calls 13.39 BB and is all-in, fold Flop: (31.97 BB, 2 players) Q
2
River: (31.97 BB, 2 players) 7
June 11, 2012
Offline
michae1di11on said:
Hand 3 villain was opening super wide from most positions. He was stealing a lot when given the oppurtuinty from what I remember but think he was prone to calling shoves with hands like 55 when he would rarely be far ahead.
if he is opening ridicoulously wide then he also needs to call wider to prevent being exploited.
just do bit of math with OR and CR and you will soon see that if the gap between OR and CR is too big you get into territories where people can reshove ATC profitably
June 11, 2012
Offline
Hand 4:
i dont mind raising here and playing OOP vs a range we crush against the two fishes
Hand 5:
close between r/c and shove.
personally i shove more often the whole range BvB up to 17-18BB as i am always 3BBing from the SB
February 20, 2013
Offline
Hand 4 ATs is the type of hand I've been struggling with at lower BI mtts, for the reasons you mention. I get flatted too often and can't play misses well/don't get paid when I connect with this stack size.
I argue that among sickos who 3b jam over opens with all types of hands it is a good min raise induce, but vs. fishier fields an open jam is better. The reg in the BB you describe here can flat mini-opens with pretty broadways and jam pairs and better aces. The SB may only resteal jam a couple hands we dominate. Am I just trying to take the easy, scared approach with this strat or does this buyin level adjusment have merit?
Like jam hand 5, bottom of range to do it with here though.
Re: converters. Not sure about ur PS PT4 histories, but I work with Merge/HM2 and the TPE converter works for me if I paste HM2 history into the TPE converter, covert it, then copy and paste into the forum here. The paste into forum button from TPE converter doesn't work. In any event the PT4 pastes above are ez on eyes too.
April 16, 2013
Offline
What you guys think of this shove? First hand at the table of $27 SCOOP. Shoving AJs in big blind ok here?
February 20, 2013
Offline
If it's a re-entry I jam it. Otherwise I flat. If it was offsuit I would jam it regardless.
December 24, 2013
Offline
michae1di11on said:
I think open shipping 15-22bb caps your range in a way. If we never open jam QQ-AA or AK then a good player will realise were likely to have AJ, AQ, KQ, 22-JJ and play accordingly.
I think knowing when the blinds go up when you have 30bb is important too as I sometimes skip a marginal open in early position with 30bb, only for hte blinds to go up and through me the next orbit and now I only have 20bb or so and I wish i went for that steal.
I'm planning on reading this thread more in-depth when I get home from work later this evening.
However, I wanted to comment on this part. If you were to never open ship QQ-AA or AK and open shipped (let's just say the situation is appropriate) the range you described, there really isn't a single god damn thing the villain can do about it. You're talking about jamming unexploitably, meaning the antes and blinds have made it so that you can flip your hand over, allowing your opponents to react absolutely perfectly (be it one, two, three, etc opponents remaining…dont do this please, but it's true), and you will still without a single doubt, earn chips. This is known by running some numbers.
If you're blind vs blind, look at the pot in the middle (often ~2.5bb), you can run an ev calcuation if you shove. You'll see that for a range of hands, the range of hands(n) that are better than your hand/range isn't enough to outweigh the positive chip gain you get when they fold (1-n). Meaning, the equity you get from folds (not scaring them into folding, literally it would be negative ev to call with anything more than only what beats you [slightly more combos past that, as they also see 2.5bb of added money into the pot] exceeds the chips you lose when played perfectly against (called by a light hand reacting to your light shove range).
all that said, if youre playing against tougher opponents who know you'll be shoving a wide range instead of raise/?, you can find yourself in situations where it's good to open ship QQ-AA/AK instead of raising because it pretty much announces strength. At first glance, it feels like I'd prefer it if I'm shipping from btn-hj than sb since it allows more players behind to react appropriately to our “light” shoving range, but that itself might be off.
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
46 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
Tillery999
sdmathis89
ne0x00
adrianvaida2525
Anteeater
Laggro
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12008
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1
