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September 19, 2017
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If villain in the CO shoves, and I’m OTB, how do I calculate my calling range? I’m thinking of calculating my ICM equity using a calculator (13% in a hand I’m thinking of), then seeing what my equity is in poker stove vs his range. If my equity is over 13% in poker stove, then I should call. Am I on the right track?
thanks!
February 5, 2015
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Hey PokerNun! You never replied to my post in the Introduce Yourself section. Ahh well, you are forgiven my child…
Well, first off, you need to decide whether you are under either ICM or ChipEV. Cev is (far) away from the money, ICM is when pay-jumps become involved. ICMizer or HoldemResources will help you with ICM or Cev calculations. Snapshove will help you with Cev calcs only. You put in the pay jumps or payout structure (if relevant…only under ICM), and the software will tell you whether you have a call or fold at the effective BB level, according to Nash equilibrium ranges. If villain is shoving tighter than Nash, you should call tighter…if he is shoving looser than Nash, you should call wider.
Now, when you talk of equity…I will join you in some confusion. I know that you must put villain on a range for his shove…then decide whether you are getting the correct pot odds to call…ie you calculate you have 33% equity in the hand vs. villain’s range. Well, you need (slightly)better than 2-1 pot odds here to make a profit. My confusion stems around whether, as I expect is the case, Nash takes equity in to account when prescribing call (and shove) ranges. I am sure if I thought about it long enough I could work it out…but I had a whiskey…and I worked a 12 hour shift driving my truck in London…and my slightly abstracted brain is nudging me in the direction of…”Of course Nash takes range vs range equity in to account when prescribing shove/call ranges…indeed that is exactly its primary function”.
Interested in anyone’s thoughts here…
I have often pondered this, but never enough to reach a solid conclusion.
(btw, and as an aside…I am seriously intrigued by the whole “PokerNun” idea. Were you a real nun, who turned towards the dark side? This would make not just my day but my week…I am not a Satan worshiper myself…but I am twisted more towards the nihilistic and therefore amoral…I’m not quite a Beast…but I am more animal than human by nature! As I get older…I am working more on this. When I was younger I actively embraced it! At least I am not a hypocrite).
September 19, 2017
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Hey Riceman! Thanks so much for your detailed reply. I never saw your post in the Introduce yourself section, so I’ve now replied there 🙂
Thanks for clarifying. I’m actually just experimenting with 1 table SNGs, where they payout the top 3 spots. So I”m guessing ICM should be relevant when we get 5 handed or so? Are Cev calcs from snapshove the same as pokerstove? I’m guessing it’s a similar program? I was trying out ICM calculator in PT4, but not sure how to use the information from it yet.
Sorry for being such a newbie in tournaments! I’m normally a cash player only.
June 2, 2013
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Hello!
If you are playing 9 man sgns, you can use SitNGo Wizard to help you on shoves and calls you can make, this was the software I was using till 3years ago, it works better, I think, for sngs in general than mtts.
On a 9 player sng, for what I remember, ICM is most relevant at the bubble and from there on. Such as you should avvoid flips at the bubble if you risk being eliminated, or you should open your range when there is 3 people and try go for 1st place. I haven´t played sngs after pokerstars added ante tow.
I also have never used ICMizer or HoldemResources to say if this is better or not for sng, but you can download a free trial and try it.
September 19, 2017
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Thanks almofadinhas. That’s a great idea to try the softwares for free. Once I start using a software, I still don’t understand how I would know the right play when I’m in a hand. I know that I can see after the fact what the right move would be, but to play right during the tournament do I just memorize the right calling ranges vs 10bb stack for example, then wider or narrow down the range as the bb stack changes? Or do I memorize how my calling range is depending on the pot odds given?
thanks again!
June 2, 2013
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I think will be very hard to memorize all the ranges, by stack and position, what you can do is to practice a lot on this softwares, then you will develop the skill to use the ranges, i will become like second nature;
For an example, back when I used SitNGo Wizard, you need to give your opponents ranges of calling or shoving, and adapt from there; you can, and should, practice some situacions a lot, like give the software the option to play pre flop against two more people, and V to shove, then you practice calling ranges based on that 3 handed or HU, than you try you shoving, then you add more players, for a 9 player sng you will play at the bubble, and you should have tighter ranges of calling, and wider shoving ranges.
One advice, try to find some instruction on how the software work before you download it, in my case i will be frustrated having to find it after i start my free trial 
hahaha.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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PokerNun said
Thanks almofadinhas. That’s a great idea to try the softwares for free. Once I start using a software, I still don’t understand how I would know the right play when I’m in a hand. I know that I can see after the fact what the right move would be, but to play right during the tournament do I just memorize the right calling ranges vs 10bb stack for example, then wider or narrow down the range as the bb stack changes? Or do I memorize how my calling range is depending on the pot odds given?
thanks again!
It’s less about memorization (although that can be somewhat helpful if you’re very new to these concepts), and more about spending a large number of hours running calculations on different hands, such that you can condition your instincts to be more aligned with good decision-making.
It’s difficult to sit there and do complex math at the table, so it’s much better to focus on getting yourself to the point where you’ve done enough work away from the table that your at-the-table responses start to gradually get better and better. That goes for almost every area of the game – precision is never going to come easily until you at least develop a solid ability to think in broad strokes and be adaptable.
September 19, 2017
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That’s really helpful, thanks everyone! I’ll watch a tutorial on the program, then start the free trial.
February 5, 2015
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Ginger said
“It’s less about memorization (although that can be somewhat helpful if you’re very new to these concepts), and more about spending a large number of hours running calculations on different hands, such that you can condition your instincts to be more aligned with good decision-making.”
Couldn’t agree more. Unless your name is Casey Jarzabek, or someone else to whom all this stuff seems to come naturally and instinctively, mere mortals such as myself (and 99% of everyone else) needs to build their intuition. It really is not about memorization and the conscious mind, it is about bridging the conscious and subconscious minds via intuition.
It might be technically possible to memorize a chipEV Nash chart (I dare you to try), but it is utterly ludicrous to expect to be able to memorize ICM Nash spots for different effective stack sizes.
Intuition is the bridge between the subconscious and conscious minds. Nurture it and cultivate it.
Ginger…does Nash shove range vs Nash call range consider equity at a given effective stack depth?
My feeling is: that is all it does. But I might be very confused (as usual!).
February 8, 2017
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theginger45 said
It’s less about memorization (although that can be somewhat helpful if you’re very new to these concepts), and more about spending a large number of hours running calculations on different hands, such that you can condition your instincts to be more aligned with good decision-making.
This is very true, and I just wanted to add that it is a good idea to regularly ask yourself ‘why?’ when you are studying. Not as relevant for all-in range construction as most other poker topics but, for example, knowing why a hand like KQs outperforms AJo and 77 against some ranges (and is much worse against other ranges), will allow you to adapt your approach to villain/population tendencies that you might observe.
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