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How Many Chips Can We Get Out of V Here?
wager9
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April 19, 2015 - 1:05 am
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$1100 Live Tourney – Still Early. Blinds are 75-150

 

My Stack: 20k

V Stack: 17k

My image: TAGGY

V Image. kinda NITTY/TAG. Its still kinda early so not a ton of hands have transpired but he is somewhere in the Nit-TAG range.

 

Pre Flop: I raise from MP with KQ of spades.

V calls from CO. SB and BB call.

POT= 1400.

 

Flop: As Ts 4d

Chk. Chk. I bet 700 . V calls. SB and BB fold.

 

Pot= 2800

Turn: Js (always a fun post when hero hits the royal).

I actually bet here as I felt like he was in with something after flop so he doesnt seem like he is laying down here, especially if I bet something small to look like I kinda fear the flush. I bet 700 and he raises to 1500. So now, I am thinking he has to have at least 2 pair and will probably not lay it down it I re-raise him small, in order to build a pot and set up for a river jam. I re-raise to 2800. he calls.

 

River: Qc.

I wasn't happy to see this as now if he does have 2 pair he is going to be scared away but do I abandon trying to milk this spot and bet small or keep going and bet big, or chk raise….what would you do? Any thoughts on the entire line would be great.

PlasticPearl
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April 19, 2015 - 3:23 am
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My initial reaction is that your turn line just looks so strong. Assuming your table image is that of a competent player, it's hard to see you having less than a straight here. As played I probably still jam river and hope he has a hand he doesn't feel he can lay down.

Foucault

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April 19, 2015 - 5:04 pm
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Agree with PP, I’m not a fan of the small turn bet/small 3-bet thing. What would you ever do that with except a huge hand? You’re right to want to get value on the turn, in fact I am concerned that you feel like this is something you need to justify. You seem to imply that slowplaying would be the default play, and that is definitely not the case. You should usually be betting and raising your strongest hands, especially when your opponent could easily have a strong hand as well. If you are concerned about him folding to this line, then play bluffs the same way. That way your nuts hands benefit from the hands he doesn’t fold, and your bluffs benefit from those he does.

madpenguin12
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April 20, 2015 - 6:01 pm
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Yea. I agree with what's already been said. On the turn, I would bet at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the pot.  I think it still gives him room to raise you and the numbers just end up being a little bigger, which helps build a bigger pot going into the river.

 

Let's say you bet 1,350 after the turn.  It's hard for him to put you on a flush necessarily.  This is consistent wtih your initial c-bet of about half pot.  I think it's small enough to induce a raise to 2700+.  Assuming he pops it up to 2,800 ish, there is now 2800+ 1350 + 2800 = 6,950 in the pot.  At this point, you want to think about how to improve your chances of getting more chips.

 

a) You can reraise him

b) you can shove

c) you can call but if you decide to choose c, what are you planning on doing on the river?  

 

a) What's a good raise here? I don't think a min clickback is necessarily great, but I also don't think it will get much respect.  Generally though, a clickback to me seems strong.  I think if you do decide to go this route, you want to make it at least closer to 5k.  At this point you still give V a chance to re-raise / shove (if he's feeling lucky).  Or just call.   At this point the pot will still be bigger.  You can make a bigger value bet or just shove on the river (dependong on your read on the guy).  If he does just call 5k.  That makes the pot 12,800 and the v has about that much left.  If you did decide to check after the river blank card. You could make it seem like you had a K of spades draw, maybe even K of spades Qnon spade, and he could try to bluff big on the river.  Even if it goes check check, you still had a bigger pot than the small turn bet which got a min raise.

b) I don't think this is a good time to shove since you want to create more opportunities to get more chips in there and build a bigger pot and give him an opportunity to potentially bluff on the river.  However, if for some reason you feel he would call you with 98 spades on that turn, then by all means shove away (if you feel he has that strong of a hand and another spade would scare him on the river).  I don't think a 4th spade on the board helps you though given the best he can have is a 9s.

c) Calling here assuming he makes it 2800 i think is not ideal since you want to set up a bigger pot on the river.  Even if he folds on the turn, he probably woudl have done the same on the river.  But if he doesn't fold on the turn, you create a bigger pot with nothing to fear.  

 

Given my thought above, I think the best play is to bet a little bigger initially on the turn, and reraise him a little more than min raise assuming he raises back about double your raise.  I suppose if you think he has a 98 spades type hand you could shove after the turn but I think you're both too deep at this point.  Is he a pro, semi-pro, regular on the circuit?  Is he a guy who just was bored and decided to play a tournament that weekend? I think live play answers this pretty early on in a tournament.

 

Foucault and others, I am interested in hearing your thoughts, specifically, optimal play here.

PlasticPearl
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April 21, 2015 - 12:13 pm
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I'm probably just betting a standard turn c-bet. We block so many strong hands. I think anything other than a standard line here looks suspicious.

Foucault

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April 21, 2015 - 8:12 pm
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PlasticPearl said:

I'm probably just betting a standard turn c-bet. We block so many strong hands. I think anything other than a standard line here looks suspicious.

I agree with betting, but not really with your reasoning. I mean, blocking strong hands is a reason to check. And when you say it looks suspicious to check, follow through on that reasoning. Does that mean you would often check with weak hands and then bluff rivers in this spot?

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