November 4, 2013
I have learned that clearly this is a stack that we need to get out of some how, hoping to double up. And any two cards will be a good open in most/all situations, especially late position.
I have heard in videos a few times the phrase, “he didn’t open shove there, he must me playing very tight or he must have had total rags,” something like that.
My question is, suppose you have 8BB in early position, or 6BB in MP, or say, 4BB on the button, and you get dealt a junky hand – not 72o but like 85s. How is this statement:
“You can shove, but you can also fold, especially if you have reason to believe the action behind you will call or raise.”
My reason for thinking this is somewhat based on the notion that borderline decisions are the ones that make the least difference in the longrun EV wise. So part of that question is “are these often borderline decisions.” I realize it entails giving up one of few fleeting opportunities or be the first one in the pot with fold equity, but I also feel that with these positions and stacks – if you really do believe this particular player in the BB is huge on defending blinds but the players after him are medium stacked and tight – can we fold with the intention of shoving in the next few hands?
Or do you really have to shove every time it’s folded around to you with 85s and you are that short? Does this also go for 72o?
Thanks for reading.
No it doesnt go for 72o and yes you may shove 85s, depending on how wide villains calling range is. You want to be making a +EV shove at these stack sizes, and can sometimes take slightly -EV shoves to gamble for a bigger stack. If you are in MP with 85s, you have to ask yourself the chance of getting a better hand before the blinds go up or you hit the blinds again and have no fold equity.
As for your statement, i dont like pegging situations into a hole. Poker is a fluid game and each decision should be made on the factors that present themselves such as the tournament stage, table image, villains behind etc.
September 14, 2014
Agreed with Kal also I'd like to add that when your this short you've gotta take your chances and double up , you just don't have enough time to wait for a premium hand, I'd much rather bust out trying rather then get blinded out of the tourney.
Sure your opponents tendencies/dynamics/game flow/position all take a factor into your desicion but when you're sitting there with 6bb in UTG or MP shoving extremly wide is okay , a hand like 56s has like 42% equity vs AK 87o has 37% equity, so you're not in bad shape anyhow.
I must say I do kinda nit up when shoving from EP , my shoving range 66+ AJo+ and thats with a 15bb+ stacksize , some players tend to shove wider and thats fine , it really just depends.for instance on a loose table players that have a wide calling range, shoving 66+ will stil be ev+, however we can exploit our opponents and shove with a tighter range like 88+ AQo to make more money, so really just depends.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
“You can shove, but you can also fold, especially if you have reason to believe the action behind you will call or raise.“
This is the part I disagree with. You can never predict what the action behind you is going to be in that specific hand, you can only predict frequencies and ranges.
I think the only real answer to this question is that you need to get yourself a copy of ICMIZER or (better) HoldemResources Calculator and run calculations for yourself. There are no rules or guidelines about shoving ranges at any stack size, and the only way to improve your instincts is to work at it away from the table. If you try to follow some kind of rule or principle, it's going to teach you not to adapt to the players at your table, which is a bad thing.
The only exception to this is when studying Nash ranges and trying to identify spots where playing GTO is appropriate, since in those cases it doesn't really matter what the players behind us are doing. When it comes to edge passing at very short stack sizes, you pretty much can't do it, because it's not like you really have a significant edge on the field at 4bb or whatever. If you find a profitable spot, you take it.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Nice post by Ginger. I just want to clarify one thing.
Kalculater said:
You want to be making a +EV shove at these stack sizes, and can sometimes take slightly -EV shoves to gamble for a bigger stack.
I wouldn't phrase it this way. A “bigger stack” is actually worth proportionately less than a short stack. Like, 10BB is not worth 2x 5BB, so you don't want to make a -cEV play just to try to get a bigger stack. When you take a -EV spot, it's to avoid having to take an even worse one later. A good example is jamming 6BB UTG with a slightly better than average hand like K5o. The reason to do this is that if you don't, you are going to have to post a huge percentage of your stack blind on the next hand, and that makes folding, in and of itself, a -EV proposition. It also makes getting called and losing, which will happen often, less bad than it would otherwise be.
September 14, 2014
@gingetheginger45 said:
The only exception to this is when studying Nash ranges and trying to identify spots where playing GTO is appropriate, since in those cases it doesn't really matter what the players behind us are doing. When it comes to edge passing at very short stack sizes, you pretty much can't do it, because it's not like you really have a significant edge on the field at 4bb or whatever. If you find a profitable spot, you take it.
I've not looked much into GTO and my question is when is playing GTO appropriate? I do use ICMizer , its an assome tool and when it comes to push/fold spots a lot of the time i just go by playing nash ranges. Though I'd sometimes deviate from nash if i'm using a exploitive strategy , like when you have a read on your opponent and u think you're better off folding a hand because shoving won't be as profitable. You're pretty much breaking even if you just stick with nash.
Foucault said:
Nice post by Ginger. I just want to clarify one thing.
Kalculater said:
You want to be making a +EV shove at these stack sizes, and can sometimes take slightly -EV shoves to gamble for a bigger stack.
I wouldn't phrase it this way. A “bigger stack” is actually worth proportionately less than a short stack. Like, 10BB is not worth 2x 5BB, so you don't want to make a -cEV play just to try to get a bigger stack. When you take a -EV spot, it's to avoid having to take an even worse one later. A good example is jamming 6BB UTG with a slightly better than average hand like K5o. The reason to do this is that if you don't, you are going to have to post a huge percentage of your stack blind on the next hand, and that makes folding, in and of itself, a -EV proposition. It also makes getting called and losing, which will happen often, less bad than it would otherwise be.
I agree 100%. Possibly did not portray this in the way I was meaning to. The next sentence after what you have quoted was basically what you have gone more in depth with in your post, however a different example. Thanks for clearing that up.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
folding_aces_pre_yo said:
when is playing GTO appropriate?
When you don't have a read to exploit.
You're pretty much breaking even if you just stick with nash.
September 14, 2014
September 14, 2014
Very good article. I also managed to play a heads up limit game with Cepheus , I decided to quit after 40 hands or so , i was doing rather well against Cepheus (good run of cards) lol , though in the long run I'd get destroyed. Cepheus is pretty much playing close to perfect poker.
I've realised that playing against Cephus it would not matter which strategy I use. What im trying to figure out though is would it make a difference if we were going to play good or bad poker vs this bot in any form of way? so although we're going to lose we can at least decrease our losses, hope that makes sense.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
It absolutely makes a difference whether you play good or bad poker versus a GTO bot. It matters greatly which strategy you use.
If someone else is playing GTO, then the only option you have in order to not lose is to play perfect GTO yourself (impossible for any human player, really), and minimise your losses. Minimising your losses is also the same as maximising your profit. If the other person stops playing GTO and you continue, you start profiting more.
If you play bad poker (in this case, 'bad' refers to being a long way away from GTO/Nash equilibrium), then your losses versus a GTO bot will be much greater. The bot won't be exploiting you, but it will be impossible for you to exploit it, which creates spots for it to profit more. Playing 'good' poker, in other words playing close to GTO, will lead to losing less.
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