Can anyone plz explain to me what do u mean, when u say it was a profitable shove. I'm interested only when u do all in preflop. For example with J10 from CO with 10 bb. (or any two from SB to BB) What calculations do u make? how to count that, to say mathematically that shove was profitable.
Basically you need to figure out what your equity is vs the calling range of an opponent is + the equity from all the times he folds and compare it to what you are putting into the pot. If your equity is greater, then the shove is +EV. If it's lower than the shove is -EV.
To give you an example, let's take a situation where you are the small blind and it folds to you. You have AQ. Let's assume the blinds are 500/1000 with a 100 ante and you have a 10k stack before putting in your sb. The SB covers you.
The first piece of data you should consider is how often does he call. Let's say that your opponent will only call 99+, AQ+ (this is very dynamic based on gameflow situations obviously but let's just go with it). This is 6% of hands. This means he folds 94% of the time.
When he folds: 94% of the time you pick up blinds and antes of 2400 = +2256
When he calls: The 6% of the time he calls your AQ has 42% equity vs his calling range. So if you put in 10k on average you'll lose 802 when called. But this only happens 6% of the time so this is -48.12
Total EV = +2256 + (-48.12) = +2207.88
This is obviously very profitable. Let's change some assumptions though. Let's say he calls any pair or any broadway and you are now shoving 97s instead. FIrst off he is now folding only 82% of hands and your equity against his calling range is 37%. After doing this math:
your new EV is:
When he folds: 82% of the time you pick up blinds and antes of 2400 = +1968
When he calls: The 18% of the time he calls your 97s has 37% equity vs his calling range. So if you put in 10k on average you'll lose -1897 when called. But this only happens 18% of the time so this is -341.46
Total EV = +1968 + (-341.46) = +1626.54
Still extremely profitable but much less than the previous example. This is why it's almost always profitable to shove from the SB with ATC.
The calculations become a little more difficult as you shove from other positions with others to act. For example in the 97s hand let's say you shove from the HJ. That means there are still 4 to act. It's still profitable (+767) but because there are 4 left you are more likely to be called, reducing your fold equity.
Additionally, open shoving becomes less profitable when you have a big stack because you stand to lose so much the times you are called compared to the small amount you get from takign blinds. When you have 10bbs – adding the blinds is a big % of your equity. But when you have say 40bbs, adding the blinds is small equity and your loss outweighs it. I ran the numbers in the 97s hand with a 40bb hand and the EV is -2.3k.
Hope this helps.
I am happy to see this post because I am not grasping this concept a 100%.I understand how to calculate the EV for a fold but if he calls I am confused.The problem I am having is where you arrived with the loss of 802 in the first example and -1897 in the second.Thanks for the help and great post though!
sorry missed the followup question. Here's how i got it.
There's a slight error because i calculated you shoving 10k more when you started the hand with 10k. You're actually shoving 9.5k more which has a minimal effect since he's only calling 6% of the time.
There's 2400 in the pot before it's folded to you and you put in your last 9500
“When he folds: 82% of the time you pick up blinds and antes of 2400 = +1968
When he calls: The 18% of the time he calls your 97s has 37% equity
vs his calling range. So if you put in 10k on average you'll lose -1897
when called. But this only happens 18% of the time so this is -341.46″
How did u calculate how much we will loose on average when he called and how did u find the -341.46 number ?
clickys said:
“When he folds: 82% of the time you pick up blinds and antes of 2400 = +1968
When he calls: The 18% of the time he calls your 97s has 37% equity
vs his calling range. So if you put in 10k on average you'll lose -1897
when called. But this only happens 18% of the time so this is -341.46″
How did u calculate how much we will loose on average when he called and how did u find the -341.46 number ?
Let's take the equation in its whole: Total EV = +1968 + (-341.46) = +1626.54
The 1968 comes from the the 82% of the time he folds and you pick up 2400. You multiply the gain by the frequency or 2400 *.82 = 1968
The -341.46 comes from the 18% of the time he calls and you lose -1897. Once again you multiply the gain by the frequency or -1987 * .18 = -341.46.
You add these two together: fold equity + hand equity = total expected value
billbam said:
You can run all of these scenarios with a program called Poker Stove. Not sure if links are ok so just do a Google search for it, it is free and is an awesome tool for running different scenarios.
RonFezBuddy said:
clickys said:
“When he folds: 82% of the time you pick up blinds and antes of 2400 = +1968
When he calls: The 18% of the time he calls your 97s has 37% equity
vs his calling range. So if you put in 10k on average you'll lose -1897
when called. But this only happens 18% of the time so this is -341.46″
How did u calculate how much we will loose on average when he called and how did u find the -341.46 number ?
Let's take the equation in its whole: Total EV = +1968 + (-341.46) = +1626.54
The 1968 comes from the the 82% of the time he folds and you pick up 2400. You multiply the gain by the frequency or 2400 *.82 = 1968
The -341.46 comes from the 18% of the time he calls and you lose -1897. Once again you multiply the gain by the frequency or -1987 * .18 = -341.46.
You add these two together: fold equity + hand equity = total expected value
Lets do an example .
We have stack of : 1000
Blinds are: 50/100
He are holding: 72o
BB Cover us with: 1100
Lets suppose that his calling ange is 10% . So he fold 90% . If we shove and fold we win 150(pot) * .90 = 135
If we shove and get called : We have 25% EQ vs His range . Here is when iam getting confused can u tell me the formula from when he call us and our EQ vs HIm ?
RonFezBuddy said:
clickys said:
“When he folds: 82% of the time you pick up blinds and antes of 2400 = +1968
When he calls: The 18% of the time he calls your 97s has 37% equity
vs his calling range. So if you put in 10k on average you'll lose -1897
when called. But this only happens 18% of the time so this is -341.46″
How did u calculate how much we will loose on average when he called and how did u find the -341.46 number ?
Let's take the equation in its whole: Total EV = +1968 + (-341.46) = +1626.54
The 1968 comes from the the 82% of the time he folds and you pick up 2400. You multiply the gain by the frequency or 2400 *.82 = 1968
The -341.46 comes from the 18% of the time he calls and you lose -1897. Once again you multiply the gain by the frequency or -1987 * .18 = -341.46.
You add these two together: fold equity + hand equity = total expected value
Lets do an example .
We have stack of : 1000
Blinds are: 50/100
He are holding: 72o
BB Cover us with: 1100
Lets suppose that his calling ange is 10% . So he fold 90% . If we shove and fold we win 150(pot) * .90 = 135
If we shove and get called : We have 25% EQ vs His range . Here is when iam getting confused can u tell me the formula from when he call us and our EQ vs HIm ?
Let me take a crack at this and hopefully RFB or someone will step in and correct me if i'm off.
If we shove and get a fold then we win the 150 blinds, this happens 90% of the time so 150 *.90 = 135
If we shove and get called, assuming we have 25% EQ vs his range then 150+1000+1000 *.25 = 537.5
So our EV when called is 537.5-1000 = -462.5. This only happens 10% of the time though so -462.5*.10 = -46.2
Or total EV = 135 +(-46.2)
= 88.8
RonFezBuddy said:
This is obviously very profitable. Let's change some assumptions though. Let's say he calls any pair or any broadway and you are now shoving 97s instead. FIrst off he is now folding only 82% of hands and your equity against his calling range is 37%. After doing this math:
your new EV is:
When he folds: 82% of the time you pick up blinds and antes of 2400 = +1968
When he calls: The 18% of the time he calls your 97s has 37% equity vs his calling range. So if you put in 10k on average you'll lose -1897 when called. But this only happens 18% of the time so this is -341.46
Total EV = +1968 + (-341.46) = +1626.54
Is the above calculation correct. If it is then i'm bout to set myself up for a huge fall here 🙂
When he folds: 82% of the time you pick up blinds and antes of 2400 = +1968
When he calls: The 18% of the time he calls your 97s has 37% equity vs his calling range. So if you put in 10k on average you'll lose -1712
when called. But this only happens 18% of the time so this is -308.16. That's assuming we're putting 10k in.
If our starting stack is 10k and we're putting in 9.5k after the blinds are posted then we'll lose -1582 on ave when called. With this happening 18% of the time, so this is -284.76
Hope somebody can check these numbers as i'm still trying to get my head round this stuff myself and would like to know if i'm making a fundamental error somewhere.
Cheers
Daniel
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