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November 21, 2013
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Villain was chipleader and in the 50 or so hands I saw him play, he probably opened at least 12-15 and never folded to a 3 bet or flop bet (Almost always flatted/floated)
Sorry no HUD stats, on New Jersey WSOP website in the 27.50 rebuy 10k Guaranteed. 30 got paid about 75 left.
I just 3 bet the other big stack at the table 2 hands ago but have been kind of quiet since I got there about 50 hands ago.
Blinds 300/600 ante 75
UTG+1 60,000
Hero 34,500
Dealt to Hero AhKc
UTG +1 Opens to 1450
Hero (Cut off) Raises to 3240
UTG Calls
FLOP
3s 8c 10c
Check Check
Turn
Jh
UTG+1 Bets 3000
Hero Calls
River
9h
UTG +1 Bets 4950
Hero Raises to 13500
UTG +1 Calls and Shows 5c7c
March 26, 2013
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Preflop obviously fine and takes the initiative.
Flop, I actually like the check given your read on villain plus it is a board that hits opener range with lots of flush draws, straight draws plus Tx type hands that might ck/call or ck/raise.
Turn, your check opens it up for villain to stab here so calling a small bet seems fine to me.
River, I think you just have to fold. Villain is going to have a hard time double barrelling into that board with nothing and probably would check/call a made hand that couldn't stand much heat. If you really think he is bluffing you can call as I think AK has showdown value against some missed draws but it is pretty thin imo.
As it played out you might have got a fold versus a tighter player but against this villain I don't think the bluff has much chance of success unless he missed everything.
November 22, 2013
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I like the pre-flop 3 bet, which siezes the initiative, and I think is standard. I also like your sizing, enough to add some fold equity, but small enough to still get worse hands to call. It forces him to make a tough decision either way, either fold when he probably has the odds to call, or play a larger pot than he wanted to out of position. I'm a big fan of smallish 3bets in position.
Flop-Why didn’'t you c-bet? To a certain extent, cbetting allows worse to fold, and gets too much action from better. However, it'’s a fairly draw heavy board, and I think cbetting would generally be better. For me, I’'d just cbet there 90% of the time. I can see arguments from both sides, and I think a lot of people would check behind, but I’'m curious as to your reasoning behind the check.
Turn-Mandatory raise. His bet screams that he has a draw that he wants to hit at his price and he is throwing a blocking bet out there out of fear that you would raise larger if it was checked to you. You simply cannot allow your opponent to get there. It’'s unlikely that he has a made straight, he would have to have Q9 or 79 specifically, which is somewhat unlikely given that he called a 3bet. You said that he called three bets before so he could have called with those hands, but it is still unlikely. However, there are tons of straight DRAWS at this point plus the obvious potential flush draw. You simply HAVE to charge the draws.
River-Very bad raise. The straight draws got there. It’'s also reasonably likely that by now he has a pair, so I suppose there is something justification to represent the straight yourself, but even then I don’'t know if he folds often enough to justify the raise given how the hand has played out. There is some justification for calling with AK if you really soul-read him for a missed flush draw, but I don'’t see how you can do that.
My biggest problem with the hand is that you played passively two streets post-flop, ostensibly for pot control. If that is the case, you should just fold river. If you had a draw yourself you likely would have semi-bluffed it, given that the pot was large and worth stealing, and that you had initiative in the hand. By checking twice you threw away any fold equity you otherwise would have had and let your opponent get there. Checking twice then bluffing river was the worst possible line to take. For me it's barrell twice (flop turn). No offense.
September 5, 2013
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fold turn, you will cbet your toprange so your perceived range contains alot of Ax, ofsuit broadways and lowpocketpairs. A decent villain will know this and bluff you off on the river. You do have the Kc which blocks some combo's but a decent villain is capable of bluffing you off otr. Besides that this board hits the range of villain kinda hard.
@WizardZur
I think a flop check is fine. if we assume you cbet your toprange and checkback sv hands you have a value range of JJ+, TdTh, TdTs, ThTs, AdTh, AdTs, AhTd, AhTs, AsTd, AsTh, JdTh, JdTs, JhTd, JhTs, JsTd, JsTh which are only 39 combinations (maybe less if you don't 3b Jto and Ato) If you you choose to cbet 90% of your range you are very unbalanced and therefore exploitable. Besides that you still have showdownvalue with Axkc (and some backdoors) so imo it's kind of sweet to get to an showdown cheap. You can balance your value range with some other hands out your 3b range
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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WizardZur said:
Turn-Mandatory raise. His bet screams that he has a draw that he wants to hit at his price and he is throwing a blocking bet out there out of fear that you would raise larger if it was checked to you. You simply cannot allow your opponent to get there. It''s unlikely that he has a made straight, he would have to have Q9 or 79 specifically, which is somewhat unlikely given that he called a 3bet. You said that he called three bets before so he could have called with those hands, but it is still unlikely. However, there are tons of straight DRAWS at this point plus the obvious potential flush draw. You simply HAVE to charge the draws.
Strongly disagree with all of this. Will explain why.
Preflop – fine, good sizing, no problems.
Flop – if he's never folding to cbets, you should be cbetting AK 100% here. AK is a strong hand. He's going to call with a lot of dominated Ax hands and some draws. You get value. Checking back vs unpredictable players with wide ranges can often put you in weird spots.
Turn – the reason I hate raising here is because it represents absolutely nothing, and you're getting such a good price to call that it becomes unnecessary. You have potentially six outs to a winning top pair, plus four outs to the nuts, and if you did make the nuts with a Q on river there would be times when he'd have the second nuts. Think of a strong hand that you'd 3bet preflop, check back the flop with and then raise the turn – JT? Probably don't 3bet it often, and probably bet flop. AJ? Rarely 3bet. JJ? Bet flop. Q9 or 97? Bet flop, probably fold pre. J8? Wouldn't 3bet. Your range on the turn is basically AQ and AK exactly when you raise, because your line says to villain “I had a strong hand pre, but then I missed the flop completely, but then the jack on turn improved my hand!”
Additionally, when villain bets really small on turn on a co-ordinated board like this it's really hard for him to have pure air. Sure, there are a lot of draws out there, but there are so few of them that don't already have a pair that beats us (KQ and Axcc are the most likely ones), and most of the ones that do have at least a pair are also going to have a straight draw (any two cards 7 or higher has a straight draw on this board), so it seems like this kind of player would be unlikely to fold them to one raise.
Basically, the situation on turn is that we have a drawing hand, and villain has bet small enough to give us a price to draw, based on implied odds and the slight possibilty of us already having the best hand. Raising represents nothing and would not be likely to get him to fold, which sucks for us.
River – I don't hate it. You rep basically AQ or maybe Q8 specifically, but that doesn't make it bad in and of itself. What I think makes it bad though is that it's so likely villain has a Qx or 7x hand here, and I think its very unlikely we'd get him to fold a 7. He may not even fold QJ or another 2pair hand. In general, bluffing vs these types of villains is bad, especially when your line as a whole does not represent strength. The fact that you didn't cbet the flop narrowed your range down hugely, which meant that your river bluff represented an even narrower range.
TL;DR – work on understanding your own range as well as the villain's. Once you check back the flop, it's going to be very, very tough for you to successfully bluff on future streets – not just on this board, but on most boards.
September 5, 2013
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Whats your plan on the turn then? If you are cbetting for value OTF you’re checking behind a high % on the turn I guess. Or do you turn your hand in a bluff? If you check turn doesn’t that make the river spot way more difficult? You are up to make a herocall vs a polarized range in which you do not even beat all the bluffs. If villain sizes river big, which he Imo should be always doing, you have to fold an insane amount of the time.
I think it’s kind of useless to cbet if you’re planning to check behind on turn given the fact that villain doesn’t fold on cbets.
TPE Pro
December 30, 2013
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I believe the line id be taking vs villain is pretty much the same as ginger, with one caveat:
if im not cbetting the flop, im giving up the turn vs unpredictable villains who aren't willing to fold. that said, im cbetting the flop a lot.
one point that hasnt been brought up is that you can't double barrel if you dont first cbet this flop, and heavy double barreling is generally the only way to get ppl like this to fold. the line you took needed to be either a double barrel or just a give up IMO, and the one you ended up taking happened to be an ineffective mix of both.
the river raise actually isnt even THAT bad, i think folding > raising >>>>calling. problem here is that given board texture he has a ton of straights even if he bricked FDs and hes not going to fold even the bottom end here.
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