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Hi Guys, I didnt have many hands on the villian but he was running 21-21 over 24 hands. I put him on a range 99+, AJs+, KQs, AQs+. Just started to use the math in these spots as I suck in them, so if I did the math correctly I needed 27% to make the call and with 88 I had 37% to make the call on the 3 bet. But I snap shipped it against him . Mistake? I had him covered, but I made the move quickly after fumbling through the math. Should I have just called and see what happened on the flop? Is the math ok?
Poker Stars $50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t4000/t8000 Blinds + t1000 – 9 players
Hand Conversion courtesy of Tournament Poker Edge
kissa47 (SB): BB = 23.7, t189263
pageh656 (BB): BB = 22.7, t181875
Kaptajn M (UTG): BB = 36.8, t294369
sanko33 (UTG+1): BB = 23.6, t188604
FSUltimate07 (UTG+2): BB = 13.2, t105280
JohnFR (MP1): BB = 94.1, t752935
deZZZed (MP2): BB = 57.9, t462843
PokerQQQueen (CO): BB = 3.4, t27253
cashonly1111 (BTN): BB = 42.7, t341636
Pre Flop: (t21000) cashonly1111 is BTN with 8
8
6 folds, cashonly1111 raises to t24000, 1 fold, pageh656 raises to t59875, cashonly1111 raises to t340636 all in, pageh656 calls t121000 all in
Flop: (t374750) J J 4
(2 players – 2 are all in)
Turn: (t374750) T (2 players – 2 are all in)
River: (t374750) 9 (2 players – 2 are all in)
In this situation I'm shoving preflop but as played I think you're well ahead of his range (even over 24 hands I think 21/21 is significantly loose).
IMO, as played, anything other than putting his raise alin would be incorrect. I would also widen the range you gave him to something like 22+ A6o+ A4s+ QJs+ KJo+
Ok thanks, I definitely didnt have him with that wide of a range. What numbers would have put him closer to the range I had? 15-15, Or even less?
Cashonly said:
Ok thanks, I definitely didnt have him with that wide of a range. What numbers would have put him closer to the range I had? 15-15, Or even less?
I think the sample is too small to focus on but feel that 21/21 even over such as small sample widens his range.
Also the fact that it's a button raise from you coupled with his stack size makes this a perfect re-steal situation for him.
If you ran into a higher pair, well thats poker but given the dynamics you've described I'm always getting it in.
With 22 BBs, jam pre. Unless he is just rarely openning and has been passive. But even then, I can't really see doing anything but jamming. You 3 bet pre is great with AA, KK. Not good with 88. Preferably, you would rather take the pot down now. You have a bit of fold equity with the stacks…probably to where you can fold out the bottom to middle of his range pre. As played, he you are instantly giving him odds to call…but you bet size would induce a spazz…which is why I like it for AA, KK, etc…but not with 88. You are dominated by all his pair range and flipping with the rest.
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TPE Management
July 20, 2010
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the play here is to jam pre. your never folding to a reraise so you are effectively shoving your opponents stack and with both blinds at 22 and 23 bbs its an easy shove. shoveing in these spots takes the play away from your opponent rather him 3 bet shoving you putting you to the test
Open shoving will be less variance but I think r/c is gonna net you more chips here. He may fold his smaller pairs to a shove which he will shove over a raise, he will fold his JTs,JQs etc hands to a jam that he will jam over a raise.
Im going out for a bit now but I will go thru the numbers later on this hand.
July 3, 2010
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I feel like I overanalyze things a little too much but honestly I'm really surprised no one here had assigned him a pretty damn tight 3 betting range and talked about the option of folding.
The guy has been running 21/21 (small sample size, sure, but enough to show he has a level of mtt competency)
Anyways, a 21/21 guy makes a small and committing raise from the BB that looks like it's begging to be shoved over.
The optimal line pre is to just jam here. People will snap call medium ace hands and smaller pairs.
Personally I think the dude 3 bet with a monster and you can say it's weak but I'm folding. Doubt anyone competent just makes this small of a raise with a hand like AK/AQ. They're shipping those. And they'd ship small to medium pairs too so you need to ask what they are raising with – monsters and bluffs disguised as monsters IMO.
ttwist said:
the play here is to jam pre. your never folding to a reraise so you are effectively shoving your opponents stack and with both blinds at 22 and 23 bbs its an easy shove. shoveing in these spots takes the play away from your opponent rather him 3 bet shoving you putting you to the test
THIS ^^^
I dunno how some people feel about this, but when I have a hand that I will call a shove with against these type of stacks. I will make my usual open and just gladly welcome a 3bet shove from them. 😉
His 3b size looks like he setting up a go n go so he can be doing this 3b pretty wide but with a hand that has some value, as he has to call if we 4b shove.
I really disagree with those who are saying jam pre with 88 here. If PageH shoving range here is 99+ kqs+ ajs+ , you are not opening enough buttons. Pageh shove range against me here is something like A2s+, 56s,76s,87s,98s,109o, JTo+ ,any pair.
Its important to open enough buttons, not only is because its directly profitable with the amount of money you steal preflop, but also to widen the sb/bb shove ranges so you can switch gears and tighten up on the button, waiting to snapcall any of these shoves with 66, let alone 88.
I would think his range may be a bit wider bec nobody believes a butt raise. Its a nice spot for him to come over the top and you are prob not making a mistake mathematically by calling.
These are the kind of spots that I see pros gamble with pretty late in tourneys when knowingly they are prob not way ahead very often – but they take a chance to chip up and be in better shape to go for one of the top spots.
I prob fold and try to work with my 30+bb stack.
Too conservative?
May 26, 2010
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ttwist said:
the play here is to jam pre. your never folding to a reraise so you are effectively shoving your opponents stack and with both blinds at 22 and 23 bbs its an easy shove. shoveing in these spots takes the play away from your opponent rather him 3 bet shoving you putting you to the test
Thats what I thought when I read the hand and saw the stack sizes. Bigdog does that very often in his videos as well as the other pros. If your not folding to his 3 bet then just jam it all in his eye :). As ttwist said, shoving pre you take away any play he has other then to call off or fold plus you have him out chipped also so it's for his tournament life.
Why don't we want raising against their 3bet range? If you push they have to fold 22-55, but they will 3bet these hands. Also hands like A2s etc. Shoving 88 is wasting a monster on that position 🙁
Very much appreciate the feedback from everyone!!! Thanks guys.
HITTHEPANDA said:
I really disagree with those who are saying jam pre with 88 here. If PageH shoving range here is 99+ kqs+ ajs+ , you are not opening enough buttons. Pageh shove range against me here is something like A2s+, 56s,76s,87s,98s,109o, JTo+ ,any pair.
Its important to open enough buttons, not only is because its directly profitable with the amount of money you steal preflop, but also to widen the sb/bb shove ranges so you can switch gears and tighten up on the button, waiting to snapcall any of these shoves with 66, let alone 88.
Agree totally with this.
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