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Hero goes for the gamble, thoughts?
folding_aces_pre_yo
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May 7, 2015 - 1:18 pm
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#Game No : 687460938
***** 888poker Hand History for Game 687460938 *****
$15/$30 Blinds No Limit Holdem - *** 
Tournament #68805145 $2.70 + $0.30 - Table #23 9 Max (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: jiman21 ( $3,335 )
Seat 2: tomo119 ( $3,760 )
Seat 3: london_ace ( $2,987 )
Seat 4: Yukkar ( $3,120 )
Seat 5: ALVINAA ( $2,945 )
Seat 6: kapezr ( $2,755 )
Seat 9: sunnym79 ( $3,000 )
Seat 10: moloko101 ( $2,970 )
tomo119 posts small blind [$15]
london_ace posts big blind [$30]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to london_ace [ 7heart, Qheart]
Yukkar folds
ALVINAA folds
kapezr folds
sunnym79 raises [$105]
moloko101 calls [$105]
jiman21 calls [$105]
tomo119 folds
london_ace calls [$75]
** Dealing flop ** [ 2heart, Kheart, 7spade ]
london_ace checks
sunnym79 checks
moloko101 bets [$217]
jiman21 raises [$3,230]
london_ace calls [$2,882]
sunnym79 folds
moloko101 folds
** Dealing turn ** [ 6heart ]
** Dealing river ** [ 4diamond ]
** Summary **
jiman21 shows [ Qd, Ks ]
london_ace shows [ 7h, Qh ]
london_ace collected [ $6,416 ]



hey hey
 
I'm just wondering if its okay now and again just to go for the gamble like i did? or do u just prefer folding here for the most part.
 
cheers.
 
theginger45

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May 7, 2015 - 5:00 pm
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You shouldn't be thinking about it in terms of 'going for the gamble'. Nothing in poker should feel like a gamble. It's either a profitable call, or it's not – 'gambling' makes it sound like you know it's unprofitable but you're going with it anyway.

The only way to really work this out is to put your opponent on a range of hands, figure out the odds you're getting, and calculate whether you have enough equity to call. I'm not going to do that for you since it's an absolutely pivotal skill to develop, and this is a nice, convenient and simple spot in which to practice it.

Generally, I would imagine it's quite tough to fold this hand a lot of the time – however, in this particular spot, you're facing a massive overshove, and risking almost 100bb. It would be a surprise here if the villain didn't have either a) a better flush draw, or b) a better pair, or perhaps c) a hand better than one-pair.

What this means is that we're unlikely to be getting it in with particularly strong equity here. It might be profitable (depending on what exact range you put the villain on), but it's unlikely to be extremely profitable. When we're considering 100bb worth of risk, we would want to be a lot more confident of a strong profit margin.

Essentially, what you mean when you ask “would you take the gamble here?” would be better framed as “is this play profitable to an acceptable degree?” – if it's not profitable enough to justify 100bb of risk, it could be defined as a gamble. But if it feels too much like a gamble, that's probably your gut telling you that the play is not profitable enough to justify the call.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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May 7, 2015 - 7:52 pm
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very nice post ginger, i'll have to look into that 🙂

 

Cheers!

Ivellis
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May 8, 2015 - 6:00 am
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Hi Folding Aces,

Thank you for sharing this hand. I'm a beginner myself, but I'll share my thought process.

 

Let's think about what our overshoving villain jiman21 has here. Preflop the hijack raises to 3.5bb, the cutoff calls and the villain cold calls on the button with ~108bb behind. The hijack's opening range could be somewhat wide with a good amount of speculative hands. There's no antes and blinds are small, so he's probably not excessively loose here unless you've seen him playing too many hands. There's not a lot of incentive to get involved in pots at this point.

 

Since he has position on the button and the cutoff already called, we can expect villain's calling range to be similar to the hijack's opening range. I would expect villain to call here with hands like pocket pairs, broadway cards, suited connectors, and possibly suited aces/kings. Since he didn't 3bet we can probably discount a few of the strongest hands from his range like AA,KK and possibly QQ,JJ,AKs, unless you've observed a lot of limping/lack of 3betting and inclination to slow play.

 

We see the flop 4 ways with 435 in the pot. The preflop opener does not fire off a cbet into a 4way pot, probably indicating that he's whiffed this flop. The cutoff bets 217 into 435. Villain on the button raises all in for 3230.

 

What can we make of Villain's hand based on this? The cutoff bet into a 4way pot and was not the preflop raiser, so is likely on at least a decent made hand or strong draw. Villain, undettered overbet shoves with 3 people who could potentially call. Is villain ever bluffing here? With it 4 way with a flush draw on the board, we can reasonably discount bluffing. At these stakes he's unlikely to be bluffing often enough for it to be worth paying him off. I would put villain on at least top pair top kicker (best case scenario), with sets, two pair, top pair with a flush draw being other possibilities. I'd be particulary worried about sets and better flush draws like AhK.

 

As Ginger suggested you can take all these hands and see how your hand matches up against the range you put him on. You can also do a quick and dirty version calculation during these types of decisions to see what optimistically your chances are. Suppose we think that the cutoff will fold and we can win if we make our flush, or make a set of 7s. This feels like wishful thinking to me, so if the pot odds are no good here, we can feel great about not risking our tournament life on this hand. That gives us 11 outs. The quick estimation for 11 outs twice is 44%. We are faced with calling 2882 to win 3534, which means we need about 45% equity to break even. Since we are not getting a good price even by optimistic estimation, this should be an easy fold. Once you factor in the possibility of someone else calling, the sorts of hands that have you crushed and the risk to the last of your chips, things look much worse.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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May 9, 2015 - 11:30 am
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@Ive hey and welcome to TPE!

 

I agree with what you have written , i really should think more and do the caculations on how my hand is playing vs villians over-bet shoving range for sure and like u said we also have to worry about any other callers in the hand 🙂 

BionicApe
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May 9, 2015 - 12:57 pm
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That huge bet on the flop by jiman is so spurious that I'd be tempted to call even if I weren't getting such good odds to call against a top-pair type of hand.

In the micros that kind of huge flop overbet is usually either a big draw, top-pairish, or BS… occasionally the nuts, but most go for value.

I'd snap this one off and be happy to bust out early if that happens to be the result.

OneTime1Time
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May 12, 2015 - 1:39 pm
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The best we can realisitically hope for is a coinflip here. We get 49.4% ev vs just the shover if he shoves a range of 22/77/AKs/AKo/KQs/KQo/AhXh/JTh/J9h/T9h. This might be conservative on the flush draws he shoves that we beat, but I don't play enough micro's to really range this 100%. I don't think he is ever just pure bluffing, and want to be really conservative on his flush shoving range.

Obviously, from a pure EV perspective, a coinflip is good and we should be putting the chips in. However, once you start to consider a GTO or a lifespan factor, it's absolutely horrible. We should almost never be looking to take 100bb coin flips in level 1 of a tournament. We really shouldn't be looking to take 100bb coinflips at any point in a tournament. If we have 20bb here, I'm all for shipping it in. Having 200bb here won't increase our chance of winning this tournament by a value significant enough to justify the risk of busting it. There is a tonne of poker left to play before we get anywhere near the money. 

Keep in mind, I think the range I've given him is quite loose. It was literally a “how good can we realistically be” scenario. The actual shove range I give V in this spot is much tighter, and drops us to about 44%. 

As played, I'd fold this and not loose any sleep over it. 

BionicApe
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May 12, 2015 - 2:04 pm
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Obviously, from a pure EV perspective, a coinflip is good and we should be putting the chips in. However, once you start to consider a GTO or a lifespan factor, it's absolutely horrible.

Would you extrapolate on this a bit, please?  I generally don't have a problem taking a big flip early in a tournament especially in a case like this where my call would give me a strong table image.  Demonstrating that I'm willing to take marginal +EV spots will make my opponents at this table much less likely to put moves on me.  If it's a freeze-out then I'm more likely to fold, but if I can rebuy or re-enter I have no problem getting it in.

Why should I not take advantage of a +EV spot where the villain's shove looks weak? 

OneTime1Time
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May 13, 2015 - 8:01 pm
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I'm not sure how much you know in regards to game theory, and I'll admit that I'm still at the early stages myself, so what I'm saying in this response is mostly subjective opinion.

Ultimately, I try to look at each decision I make inside the Meta Game we play, and how that can affect downstream play. Most of us do, because we are aware of how our opponents percieve us. Knowing that you a player is willing to take huge gambles early in a tournament makes them quite exploitable.

If I know you won't fold a flush draw here, then I'm only ever going to shove sets, AK, KQ and two pair combos(which we can assume I have none of on this board). This puts your equity at 42%. You are now willing to risk your entire tournament life, which at this point is 100bb(super deep), when you are only 42% to be able to continue in the tournament. 58% of the time, you bust out. Busting out = 0$. Doubling up however, does not garuntee us any money. So our real net result here, is a huge risk that has very little imperical gain. Especially if you are always taking a spot like this. Tournament poker is all about survival, and we do that by reducing our variance. Taking a 42% spot for 100bb is going to be insanely high variance. 

You also need to consider the fact that if you fold, your opponents won't magically think they can put moves on you. They don't know what you folded. For all they know, you could have QTss here. If they are even paying attention. 

I know I can be a bit scattered here, because all my thoughts on GT aren't fluid yet. What I'm essentially trying to get at is that you need to evaluate the potential gain versus the known risk, as well as the implications this will have/not have on future play. It isn't something mathmatically quantifiable. It will be different for everyone. It's a striking juxtapose for me, because I have very high risk tolerance with my bankroll, yet I don't like to take huge gambles in game. I guess for me, I just don't feel that the 42% of times I'm doubling up here will parlay into success often enough to offset the 58% of times I bust out – when in contrast to the success I expect if I just fold. 

What we need to consider is that there isn't any one tool that is perfect for making a decision when we are playing deepstack poker. Once you get down to 20bb, a lot of it can be simple math. At 100bb, there are a lot more variables involved, because losing the 10bb we have invested doesn't actually have a big impact on our expected return from this event. I guess a simple way to say what I'm thinking is that “2bb is worth a lot more to our 20bb stack is than 10bb is to our 100bb stack”.

I hope these rambling thoughts make sense, if not let me know and I'll try to sort them out better.

kondor
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May 13, 2015 - 10:00 pm
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The answer to your question lies in the game.

what happened to the guy you went up against?  Did gambling work out for him?… 

and…

did your gambling win make a big difference to your chances of winning the MTT in the end?

BionicApe
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May 14, 2015 - 2:45 am
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Oh, I see the real problem here. You're assuming the villain has a reasonable preflop calling range. This is probably where we diverge the most. I'm generally unwilling to give someone credit for a reasonable calling range when they make an unreasonable shove like the small blind did here. In my experience, aberrant betting often implies aberrant ranges. I feel strongly like I'm frequently going to have closer to a full 14 outs in cases such as this.

Sometimes they'll get me, but the type of player who does this with the nuts is few and far between. The type of donk who does this with a pair of 10s is much more commonplace.

Kalculater
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May 14, 2015 - 2:50 am
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kondor said:

The answer to your question lies in the game.

what happened to the guy you went up against?  Did gambling work out for him?… 

and…

did your gambling win make a big difference to your chances of winning the MTT in the end?

This is completely results oriented thinking and not the way we should be thinking about this hand at all.

BionicApe
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May 14, 2015 - 3:08 am
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If you were in the small blind, what do you think would be a reasonable hand for shoving?

Better yet, what would you shove with?

ltcolumbo
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May 14, 2015 - 1:45 pm
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you called off 100 BB on middle pair and a draw… a non-nut draw to boot. 

 

OneTime1Time
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May 14, 2015 - 8:19 pm
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BionicApe said:

Oh, I see the real problem here. You're assuming the villain has a reasonable preflop calling range. This is probably where we diverge the most. I'm generally unwilling to give someone credit for a reasonable calling range when they make an unreasonable shove like the small blind did here. In my experience, aberrant betting often implies aberrant ranges. I feel strongly like I'm frequently going to have closer to a full 14 outs in cases such as this.

Sometimes they'll get me, but the type of player who does this with the nuts is few and far between. The type of donk who does this with a pair of 10s is much more commonplace.

The guy with TT, assuming he doesn't have the heart blocker, is still 52%. Meaning you are stacking in 100bb with a 48% draw. Slightly better than the assumed range above, but still not good enough for me to ever be calling off 100bb. 

Also, I'm not assuming he has a reasonable preflop calling range. I'm assuming he has a strong, not very bluffy flop overshove range. I guess I just don't run into the donks who are shoving T9s in spots like this. That is verly likely because the guys who do that go broke before they can make it to the buy ins I play. I also don't see many guys who snap off 100bb in this spot at my stakes either. 

The only hands I'm calling off in this spot are sets, and if I know the player to be spazzy, AK. I seroiusly just snap fold KQ. If I don't know much about the player, I'll look at folding AK as well. This changes if the shove happens on a non heart turn instead of on the flop. 

BionicApe
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May 15, 2015 - 8:41 pm
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I'm hung up on this notion that there's no reasonable hand with which to make a 100bb jam.  It's an exploitative type of play and if I have little reason to believe my opponent has a read on me I'm going to think my opponent is making a mistake.  If the shove itself is a mistake doesn't that make calling better?

I reckon it depends on the type of mistake my opponent is making.  The BS klaxon is just deafening on this one though.

Kalculater
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May 15, 2015 - 9:55 pm
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Epic link columbo

OneTime1Time
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May 16, 2015 - 12:35 pm
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Your opponent isn't making a mistake, per se. While he isn't taking the most profitable line, the line he is taking is far from unprofitable. I'm going to take out the other player on the flop to make this calc more simple, as I'm assuming he just folds all the time. I'm also rounding to keep things clean. It should be close enough to display my thoughts.

 

Assuming Hero flats pre with a 60% range(which seems decent to me), hero only calls 7% of the time – 1 in 15. Hero Call Range is =  AKo/KK/77/22/AXh/QXh/Jh7h/Th7h – I removed some of the bottom QXh's.

Hero CeV = 

652*0.93 = 606 when Villain shove goes through (93% of the time)

6416*0.07*0.35 = 157 when Hero Calls and Villain Wins (7% of the time, with 35% EV)

6416*0.07*0.65 = -292 when Hero Calls and Villain Loses (7% of the time, with 65% EV for Hero)

 

606+157-292 = 471/30 = 15.7bb gain

That is far from a mistake. If we tighten our range to KK/77/22/AK, we get him down to 13.7bb; keep in mind that these numbers are hugely inflated because we are playing 100bb deep. Still, this is a profitable long term play from him.

 

The numbers for Hero are 4.5bb gain with big range, 7.0bb gain with little range. 

 

Given those numbers, it's a mistake for us to call. Even though we have a solid little gain, it's significantly less than his, and from a GTO standpoint, risking 100bb to win 4.5bb is going to be insanely high variance. Consider how often we can 3b without putting our stack at risk, and pick up the exact same, or more, big blinds. 

 

As always with me, there is a chance my math is wrong. If it is, someone please gently correct me and I'll lrn2math better.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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May 20, 2015 - 1:06 pm
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I've been looking at this hand more in depth and have caculataed our pot odds and how much equity we need on the call vs villians shoving range.

 

as for our odds we're getting 1.3 to 1 which means we're going to need 43.5% equity.

 

I'm using slice as a equity caculater , i'd say v is shoving here with KJ, KQo, KJs, KQs, 22, T9s, 98s, 78s, 67s, QJs, QTs, Q9s, KTs, K9s, JTs, J9s, J8s, A2s+.

 

against that range it seems as slice ain't giving me the precise answer.

 

when i dont put in the flop , it says hero's hand has 43% equity vs that range. i'm guessing though u have to put in the flop right?

folding_aces_pre_yo
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May 20, 2015 - 1:07 pm
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i'm new to using slice , so unsure how to use it properly.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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May 20, 2015 - 1:58 pm
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Board: Kh 2h 7s


	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
Hand 0: 	84.314%  	84.26% 	00.06% 	        188514 	      130.00   { K7s }
Hand 1: 	15.686%  	15.63% 	00.06% 	         34966 	      130.00   { 22, AQs-A8s, Ac7c, Ad7d, As7s, A6s-A2s, K9s+, QTs+, J7s+, T9s, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, KTo+ }



tried downloading stove , and the results seem unrealistic imo lol

Fire
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May 20, 2015 - 3:44 pm
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Pokerstrategy equilab works well on my machine at least, is free, easy to use and you dont need to sign-up, maybe try that. Just be aware that in MTTs chipEV is not equal to tournamentEV.

Kalculater
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May 20, 2015 - 9:43 pm
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folding_aces_pre_yo said:

Board: Kh 2h 7s


	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
Hand 0: 	84.314%  	84.26% 	00.06% 	        188514 	      130.00   { K7s }
Hand 1: 	15.686%  	15.63% 	00.06% 	         34966 	      130.00   { 22, AQs-A8s, Ac7c, Ad7d, As7s, A6s-A2s, K9s+, QTs+, J7s+, T9s, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, KTo+ }



tried downloading stove , and the results seem unrealistic imo lol

 

Seems right because you are including all suited combos and not just those with FD on flop etc. You have to select the individual hands. You really think villain is shoving QTdd or T9dd here?

OneTime1Time
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May 22, 2015 - 1:11 am
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I use slice, which isn't the easiest to use. In order to pick specific suits or suit comobs, you have to click on “choose suits” BEFORE you click on the hand you want to select them for. Somedays I just type them out because it can be faster.

You also selected K7 suited, not Q7 suited. Also make sure you only include the heart suits, not all suiteds. V is never shoving 65dd/cc/ss here. I don't know how frequently they are shoving 65hh personally.

I was doing some equity earlier on this hand before, and I remember it being really really close. It was honestly very dependant on the range he is shoving, and I think the worst we ever seen was 42% and best was 48%. I'm glad to see you are working through the math though, it's always good to do it for yourself so you can see the results. It's a learning curve, but stick with it. 

If you were reading what I was posting above though, just try to keep in mind that getting the right EV% doesn't mean we should blindy be calling here.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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May 23, 2015 - 7:32 am
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@kal , doubt villain is shoving with those hands , i pretty much mean flush draws like Qheart Theart not the other suits 😛 unless he’s spewy.

@onetime I now do have a slightly better understanding in regards to EV. I know that with ev calculations we’re pretty much calculating how much we will expect to win and how much we will lose , that’s all it is. So even so sometimes our ev can be good , that does not mean we should be calling, we may decide to fold in this spot when we’ve even got 48% equity against villains shoving range, sucks to be going out so early in the tourney. If you’re on a tough table though , i think i’d be more tempted to call here.

anyhow i’ll try work on the ranges again and use the “heart” suits instead, thanks 🙂

folding_aces_pre_yo
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May 23, 2015 - 4:34 pm
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i've tried to using slice , but the problem is that it wont let me copy and paste the results on here…

folding_aces_pre_yo
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May 23, 2015 - 4:35 pm
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@1time , do u know how to copy and paste the caculations on slice? i tried ctrl+c and that wont work either…

OneTime1Time
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May 25, 2015 - 1:05 am
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About middle of the screen for Slice, right above where it shows the results, there should be 5 tabs. Equity, Showdown Hands, Output Formats, Graph, Next Card Equities – you want to click on Output Formats, and then you should be able to select the text and copy/paste.

A good quote I read the other day, which somewhat applies to this sitaution, but is just something really good to keep in mind “Playing GTO poker will always be a +EV decision. However, playing GTO poker will also leave a lot of EV on the table.” 

folding_aces_pre_yo
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May 28, 2015 - 9:42 am
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ty onetime 🙂

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