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June 1, 2013
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February 3, 2013
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Folding is an option, and certainly the safe, conservative route, but for the sake of argument, let's throw that out.
Like you have told, folding would be probably the best here. He got a difficult stacksize, because he has to commit himself, if he cbets. But lets say folding isnt the option, if u are sure he makes a move.
If you think he is making a move here, I would prefer to call in position. You cant really 4bet him, because if he pushes, u would have to call him. 4bet shove is just ugly with you big stacks. Best option imo would be to call and revalue the pot on flop. He is OOP, so he only can cbet once with air. If he 2barrel, he has to have something.
Without knowing the flop, its hard to go on discussing this hand. Best option for me would be to fold (since your new at the table and dont really know the players. And you even said “No crazy preflop raising wars or light 3betting.”)
Second best option is to call and revalue the hand on the flop
February 1, 2013
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I'm in the folding pre clan here….. but if that's not an option my preferred line here is to flat IP and then raise his C bet on pretty much any flop depending on his bet sizing of the C bet. If it's clever and really big so he's committed that takes that option away from you, but if it's in the 30%-60% of pot range, a click to 2.5x his C bet could get the job done nicely.
More fundamentally I think the open pre is also marginal. I know you have a decent stack, but like you say you've only just moved to the table and you don't really have any idea how those to your left are going to react. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I think I'd like a few more orbits before opening KJ (often dominated hand) from the HJ to get an idea of what's likely to happened after me. One of those where I don't mind an open with 86s but don't like KJo
Winners FIND a WAY
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June 14, 2012
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I don't mind the open, but I probably just get out of the way when he squeezes. But since you've thrown that out as an option, I'd prefer making a committing 4bet to fold out his ace high bluffs (obviously if he ships it in you have to say “whoops” and call).
June 1, 2013
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Ok, on to the flop: Blinds 800/1600/100 Hero: HJ (110,000) KJo opens to 3400 CO calls 3400 B calls 3400 SB folds Villain (64,000): BB eyes bets already out there, takes his time, then raises to 15,000. Hero calls 15,000 CO folds B folds Flop (38,600) Ac Qc 7 Villain bets 15,000 Hero?
August 23, 2012
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Call flop and fold to a double. Ship turn if he checks to you. I don't expect him to double without it so this way we lose less vs his value hands even if we look stupid folding turn getting over 3 to 1.
June 4, 2012
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rivermen123 said:
I don't mind the open, but I probably just get out of the way when he squeezes. But since you've thrown that out as an option, I'd prefer making a committing 4bet to fold out his ace high bluffs (obviously if he ships it in you have to say “whoops” and call).
As others have stated I'm in the folding pre camp – but as played I like the 4bet as well – what size would you make the 4bet? I would say 35,000 – 40,000.
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August 3, 2011
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Just seems spewy live vs that stack to even consider doing anything but fold without a solid read. You have heaps of chips don't let your ego get in the way of a soft tourney. If you flat your range will more than likely be face up if he is competent. And 4 bet calling is bad. Not a whole lot of room to 4 bet fold but I guess you could which is probably the best option if you are a non- believer. 28k/fold to shove is best imo if we are throwing fold out the window.
June 1, 2013
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Thanks for the feedback everyone. I agree with a lot of what is said–KJo is a marginal open from the HJ, just fold to the 3bet being new to the table and not having a solid read, etc. I would probably have responded the same way to a similar post. Even so, I'd still open KJo from that position given the game flow/dynamics/reads to that point, though I realize these are difficult to communicate in a post like this.
The thing was this: it sounds weird to have this read 15 min in, but I was so sure this guy was full of it (not an ego thing). Because of the awkward stacks, however, I was hesitant as how to proceed. I totally agree that KJo sucks vs any range that's getting it in with me. And yet the stacks seem too shallow to 4bet fold…? I guess a raise to under 30k could give me enough room to fold, like Danny said.
Here's how the hand played out:
Blinds 800/1600/100 Hero: HJ (110,000) KcJd opens to 3400 CO calls 3400 B calls 3400 SB folds Villain (64,000): BB eyes bets already out there, takes his time, then raises to 15,000. Hero calls 15,000 CO folds B folds Flop (38,600) Ac Qc 7 Villain bets 15,000 Hero calls 15000
Turn (68,600) checked around.
River (68,600) checked around, villain wins pot with 75o.
My thinking on the flop is that--if I believe he's got air--I'm often still good. I have the nut no pair, position, and a bit of equity via backdoor flush draw and gutshot. Had planned to fold to a turn bet.
Guess perhaps the big mistake was not shoving turn?
Thanks again, though I'm not clear on the optimal line--4bet fold? 4bet call? 4bet shove?
I'm curious as to how your thinking changes now that you know he had air--in effect, you can enter a little bit more into that sense I had that he just didn't have it, even though it seems unlikely given the stack sizes.
August 23, 2012
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What were the turn and river cards?
June 26, 2013
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So when I dediced to 4 bet I think does my hand play well after the flop and if the answer is no.. I tend to 4 bet if I do have a hand that plays well after the flop I would Flat… KJo definitly falls into my 4 betting range ip . I would probly 4bet small and if jammed on .. Just fold
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