I don't know if my game has too many leaks or if I'm just running bad. I tend to have issues running really deep in tournaments due to the fact that I like never get a big stack. Yes, I often get like a 2x average stack early but I have issues maintaning and building it later on.
I have opened my game when antes kick in, and trying to steal and 3bet weak players with marginal hands a bit more. But I also think I'm not taking enough flips, let's say one opens MP, another 3bet shoves and I hold a hand like TT, that's when I get unconfident and usually fold because most of the time they are holding two overcards or even a higher pair.
It's like I don't give myself the chance to win because I'm affraid to bust, and I hate that.
What's your thoughts on this?
When I read over SSMTT I often see a lot of the same mistakes over and over. I also see a lot of mistakes I used to make a lot, and I’d like to do what I can to try and dispense some concise information that will answer a lot of the basic questions. Sometimes there are habits you make or misinformation you’re given and end up creating bad habits, so I’d like to write a series of posts/articles to address some stuff, that may seem fairly basic to some, but will hopefully clear up some common misconceptions.
I’d like to start with stack sizes and their relevance.
1. 10 BB’s and under. Basically, any hand you’re playing at this stack size is a shove. This is pretty common knowledge. However, with the increase in stars antes, and the high antes tilt already has, it very often becomes correct to start open shoving in the area of 15 BB’s.
When talking about shoving ranges with antes I’ve recently been turned onto a way of adding up you’re stacks relative size that I really like, known as ‘true BB’. What it comes down to is that the ‘true BB’ is 2/3rds of the starting pot. So if the blinds are 500/1000 with 100 ante at a 10 handed table then the starting pot is 2500 with a true BB of 1666. So if you’re sitting on the button with a hand like A5s and 15 BB’s, you can simply open shove since you have under 10 true BB’s.
2. 14-21 BB’s. Most (but not all) of the time you have a 14-20 BB stack you shouldn’t be open raising with hands that can’t call a 3 bet. There will in fact be spots where because of very weak/tight players behind you that you can in fact raise/fold this stack size, but for the most part this kind of stacks use is more so in restealing all in than open raising. This is in fact an optimal sized stack to resteal, though many players these days are very aware that this is an optimal resteal all in stack so be mindful of players who are aware of what this stack size indicates.
3. 22-30 BB’s. With this kind of stack you have more room for open raising, but for the most part restealing all in has become a bit to large in most (again, not all) circumstances. Also, when I say restealing I mean shoving hands that don’t really want calls. However, with this stack you should be restricting your open raising range a little bit more than 30+, moreso in early position. With this kind of stack though, I would still be highly aggressive in opening pots in late position as long as the players behind me aren’t huge risks to resteal. In the low 30 BB’s a go and go is very often the best option when thinking of how to play a big unpaired hand pre OOP. Say you have 32 BB’s and a villain in LP makes it 3X. If you have AQ you should be going to like 9-12X and shoving most flops, although if you really hit it hard and think villain will bet you should check shove instead.
4. 30-40 BB’s. The important part about this stack size is that a lot of people try to resteal with it pre. For the most part, especially in out of position spots, 3 betting this stack intending to fold to a 4 bet shove is pretty bad. This can be done in the upper 30’s in a few spots (and I would vastly prefer to do this in position than out with this stack) but for the most part if you 3 bet a stack of 35 BB’s or less you are putting to much of your stack to justify a fold pre flop unless villain flips up his hand and shows you that you’re 2 outing or something. At this stack size you can open raise a ton, especially If you’re playing at lower stakes where people won’t resteal on you even after the antes kick in.
5. Over 40 BB’s. At this stack you mostly have the full arsenal available to you. You can resteal with the intention of folding, you can raise pre, get 3 bet, and 4 bet hoping to cause a fold, you can flat call in position, and you can open you’re full range.
Thoughts on what your opponents know about stack sizes: Most people have a good idea that when their 10 BB’s or under they should be open shoving anything they play. When you see someone at 8 or 9 BB’s who’s been open shoving suddenly min raise or 3X you need to be aware that he’s got a big hand a ton of the time. A really important thing to watch in people is there understanding in stack sizes and what their shoving range is light on a short stack.
When it comes to restealing stack sizes most villains have a concept of this without actually knowing they know. Yea, that doesn’t make a lot of sense, but let me put it this way; most villains know to shove a bigger range over your button raise with 15 BB’s than 25 BB’s. Even though their bad, and they don’t understand why their doing this, they can tell that 25 BB’s feels like to many chips. However, some villains will be totally unaware of these things and try restealing marginal hands for a huge amount of BB’s, especially out of position since playing in a reraised pot OOP is most bad players absolute nightmare.
Also, a ton of your villains (and way more ranked p5’s than you could imagine) don’t realize how bad it is to open raise with the intention of folding at 13-20 BB’s so once you see a guy do this you realize that you can resteal off them when effective stacks are this size. ”
Found this article a while back, general but hope it helps.
Good general summary of stack sizes and how to play them….
I have similar probs with getting deep with a decent stack (50+bb). I find that when I rely on the value of my holding – its obv v dependant on whats dealt to me – I dont tend to get deep with a good stack (unless running real good), but when I really look for good spots and make plays when the spot is right for it I'm far more likely to pick up a decent chunk of chips.
i.e. we find ourselves in a good squeeze spot – agg HJ opens, flatted by calling station – but we have 52o. If i'm relying on cards I cant 3bet (whether 20bb all in or, 50bb 3xopen) but if looking for spots, most of time were gonna get folds. Simple example but just trying to highlight that to get deep with good stack I've found that looking for spots, rather than waiting for cards reaps rewards bigtime. “Crazy” plays like this arent so crazy if you expect folds.
In your example above, dont know if I like the call with TT – dependant on read on villain – much better to find yourself in a flip when you made the last bet, rather than calling off when your sure your flipping or dominated. Having said that if I put most pairs under TT in villains 3bet shove range then I would probs call.
Tough to talk so genarlly, so find some of these spots and post the hands – a lot of concepts will come up if you post hand histories….
gl
LoSt_in_DreaMs said:
I don't know if my game has too many leaks or if I'm just running bad. I tend to have issues running really deep in tournaments due to the fact that I like never get a big stack. Yes, I often get like a 2x average stack early but I have issues maintaning and building it later on.
I have opened my game when antes kick in, and trying to steal and 3bet weak players with marginal hands a bit more. But I also think I'm not taking enough flips, let's say one opens MP, another 3bet shoves and I hold a hand like TT, that's when I get unconfident and usually fold because most of the time they are holding two overcards or even a higher pair.
It's like I don't give myself the chance to win because I'm affraid to bust, and I hate that.
What's your thoughts on this?
I think we have all felt this at one time or another when playing mtt's. All I can say is this, watching the videos here, especially BigDog's, I have learned that A. you are going to win races/flips to win tourneys..Bottom Line., and B. you can't be afraid to bust. I think that this is why it is very important to play within your bankroll so if you happen to go on that downswing, or lose a flip, you don't feel it as bad in the pocket.
The thing to remember (and I have to remind myself of this as well), is that the goal of a tourney is to win, and to do this you have to accumulate the chips. To do this you have to win flips, win when you are 60/40 favorite, 60/40 dog, 70/30 dog etc. Tourneys can be soul crushers, because lets be honest there is usually only one happy person at the end, the winner. I finished 5th and 10th the other night respectively and I was disspointed. When you compete in anything, this is a natural feeling.
When at the tables, just be aware of your stack size, blind levels, and try to use the information to the best of your ability and don't 2nd guess. With tourneys and poker in general this is a game of slight edges and all you can do is it get it in good. The hardest thing that we do is be reults oriented. Just do the best you can and eventually you will be hoisting a trophy:) Remeber, when you play cards, you are never losing, only learning for the next tourney you are about to fire up. I hope this helps a little with the mindset going in to your next tourney. Best of luck at the tables!
Your battle seems the same as mine. I also find it hard to call off my stack when I think at best I will be in a flip. When stacks get shallower, it's easy, but when you're deep, I find it very difficult to call off my deep stack unless I think my holdings are at least a 60%-70% favourite to my opponents range.
Maybe I'm wrong, but whenever I go deep and I have a huge stack, it is usually because I'm on some sort of heater. When watching other players at the table chipping up, do you see them chipping up with marginal hands? Occasionally yes, some donkey sucks out or some aggro winning every flip & winning when his a dog, but on most occasions the guy chipping up is getting cards, getting them in good and they hold up. Giving one cooler after another to other opponents.
Even watching the vids on this site. When you see the pros run deep: do you see them running deep because they bluff one pot after another, or are they running good? winning the flips? giving coolers? hitting sets? etc. Other exceptions is making a play with a marginal hand and then flopping the world. I think ( and if I'm wrong, more than happy to be corrected) is that the skill of the pros is keeping their stack healthy so they have more opportunities to run good. They seem to make the right call at the right time, make the right bluff at the right time. If you constantly spew your chips off early then you never have the chance to run good in mid/late. Watching the pros in early/mid slowly building their stack in the right spot is amazing. Their skill really rises to the surface. They now have a healthy stack so when the heater comes they get a nice stack for a run at the final table.
Sure, you need to try and keep your stack at least 30 to 40 BB so that when your heater comes (if it comes) you can double up from a decent stack, it compounds the more chips you have, and bluffing and making plays with marginal hands in the right spot helps there. But I've been on tables where you hardly get the chance to do anything but fold. You're card dead for orbit after orbit and then you finally get a hand in late position like AQ or AJs or KQs or 99 and it looks like a monster, but before it gets to you all sorts of crazy action is occuring, 3 bets, 4 bets and then a jam. All you can do is simply fold. You then see the showdown and sure enough monsters everywhere AA, KK, QQ, AK etc and you feel happy you folded, and the next time you get a decent hand, same thing happens, meanwhile you're stack is dwindling. What do you do? shove it in anyway? Knowing you're probably a huge dog and hope for the best?
I like to watch the high stakes tourneys on stars, and same thing happens. The players chipping up are not doing it with marginal holdings, they are doing it with great cards, and their opponent also has great cards but not as good. I was watching stevie444 the other day in the $100 rebuy on stars. He called off his stack twice with AQ and both times ran into KK and both times he hit his ace and busted the Kings. He got to the final table with a huge stack. Was that great play? Is that what you have to do? Maybe so, I don't know.
Maybe when you're playing 10 to 20 tourneys at a time, you can take more chances knowing you're still in another 10 tourneys. But if you're like me, just a rec player who plays only one tourney and sometimes 2 it is hard to take such chances, knowing if you bust you don't get to play until tomorrow.
I feel your pain, I struggle in mid to late position a lot. I know I am too nitty, but since joining TPE I know I'm not a nitty as I was, and I know it is one part of my game I still need to work on a lot. I was live sweating bigdog the other day in a stars sunday major, and he was deep and he made a play that didn't work out and he busted, but it totally inspired me. It was like looking into a mirror, knowing there is no way I would ever make such a play, but I know that I have to break out of this mindset and start making such plays if you want to compete with the big boys.
October 6, 2010
I would advise you guys to go have a look at the Math Theory vid, and play around with the spreadsheet – its sounds like you guys possibly aren't calling correctly, probably too tightly.
i think in terms of evolution of poker players, most decent players have shoving ranges downpat, but the next step along the road is calling ranges, and i think that is where most of us low/mid stakes players have the biggest leaks (myself included although i probably call too wide rather than too tight sometimes)
Another thing to keep in mind is that its ALWAYS better to error on the aggressive side rather than the passive side.
If you want to accumulate big stacks you have to be willing to die in order to survive.
A lot of the low stakes MTTs you can literally run over the final 27 players down to the FT bubble with sheer aggression because everyone is so scared (some probably never made it this far in a MTT before shitting their pants) identify these players and RAISE their blinds mercilessly.
On the contrary, if you notice a player raising 2-3 hands an orbit, guess what he’s opening wide. Forget your cards, re raise him.
Good players have a great ability to win a TON of pots without ever showing down hands.
I
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