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May 30, 2012
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Interested in ppls thoughts on this hand… Grindin4tips was 8tabling at this point a mix between 20-100$ buy ins and the other guy was only 1 tabling. Felt so gross about this lead on the turn as it looks super nutted from someone who I deem to be competent. Can we ever fold here? Whats the best line from the turn.
I hadnt been very active as had moved tables a few times so was fairly readless on the guys, except for Grinding4tips who Is from Australia and Ive seen around on stars quite a bit.
garyknife (CO): BB = 41.6, t16652
urwifeisgood (BTN): BB = 46.6, t18656
Semper420 (SB): BB = 51.1, t20430
Willoah (BB): BB = 24.6, t9860
Luckyal13 (UTG): BB = 61.5, t24587
grindin4tips (UTG+1): BB = 42.1, t16833
Hero (MP1): BB = 25.2, t10075
yellowandblu (MP2): BB = 18.4, t7340
Pre Flop: (t920) Hero is MP1 with A
A
Luckyal13 raises to t800, grindin4tips calls t800, Hero raises to t1875, 5 folds, Luckyal13 calls t1075, grindin4tips calls t1075
Flop: (t6545) T 4
8 (3 players)
Luckyal13 checks, grindin4tips checks, Hero bets t2000, Luckyal13 calls t2000, grindin4tips calls t2000
Turn: (t12545) J
(3 players)
Luckyal13 checks, grindin4tips bets t3988 , Hero???
June 5, 2012
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Wow, pre is super awkward. I don't like the 3B size personally, since it would be super +EV for them to setmine against you all day, especially with two of them in there. Its kind of villain dependant, but I think your 3B will look super nutted to everyone but the most braindead knuckledragger. I like it against a single raise, but in this spot I think this sizing is asking for trouble.
On the other hand, like you said it's a gross spot, because we really want to get max value from our AA, and it's really tough to do that here. There might be an argument for tank/shoving, since you do only have 25BBs, UTG could call you comfortably, and the shove might get max value since it looks weaker. But again villain dependant. I feel like I have a lot of success shoving AA/KK against strong opponents, since they level themselves into light calls.
I also think with your stack size that you want to be able to just shove flop, but I could be wrong. Maybe 2.2K for your 3B, if both come along its about a pot sized shove…if only one comes you can CB flop shove turn, and they can't set mine against you…so that's bueno.
Anyway. As played, I think you're just trying to win too much and just giving them too great of a price to catch up. If you just bet out half pot, its going to take a VERY disciplined fold from villains for them to get away from stuff like Tx, overpairs, etc. By the time it gets to grindin, he's getting better than 5:1 to try to bust you…with implied odds he can make a +EV call with basically anything that remotely got a piece of that flop. +EV for them is -EV for us.
So IMHO, the problem w/the hand was the sizing PF and flop, not on the turn decision.
As played though…we probably have to make a disciplined laydown. We're getting ridiculous pot odds…assuming no FE I think we need like 28% equity…but since all combos of JJ/TT are in both of their ranges, and possibly some 88…it's pretty hard to figure out how we're ahead here.
I also think the sizing should be bigger, if you would make the 3b close to 3x you would have a potsizebet left …
but tbh with a 25bb stack I would 3b shove pre any hand I play here
May 30, 2012
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Yeh I agree with with what was said to an extent. I guess I am making them get in for a cheap price. On the other hand if they are good then surely no one is calling a 25 bb 3 b from these positions. I did say I was readless on the first guy so have to assume hes bad and not stack size aware.
Reason I made it small coz obviously was to bring them in with worse hands. Looking back on it I guess its a bit small and because there is a flatter I spose I shuda made it 3x. If there was no flatter I like my 3b sizing.
Im not against the small bet on the flop tho, maybe cud make it slightly bigger. Its a super dry board and hard for anyone to have anything here. However once UTG+1 calls alarm bells should have been ringing in my head, which they were at the time. I fell into a trap where i was like ' oh Ive got AA with 25 bb, GG' But I guess in circumstances like these it could quite conceivably be a fold on the turn.
May 30, 2012
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Also @ Floppedbackdoor, I did consider shoving and if I had a few less chips I prolly would have. Funny thing Is If I have AK/AQs/jj/qq here Im jamming pre so maybe my logic and balancing is flawed??
Just a horrible spot coz you want to get max value from AA as you said but you dont want to let 2 others in for cheap. If UTG folds then I dont see a competent player flatting my 3b in his spot.
I agree with the range you gave him also but surely if he had any of those he would just let me continue barrelling considering I have Pot left whether I have the goods or air.
June 7, 2012
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I think most of us agree, the pre flop 3 bet is too small. Though you want value from As, you do not want to risk seeing a flop 3 ways, we need to range our opponents a little better. Also, with your 3bet, it screams strength so they *should* know they are up against a MONSTER, if I were in their shoes I would put you on AK suited, Qs+ MAYBE Js.
Just like bada said, a 3x 3bet leaves you exactly a pot sized shove left if both players call, a great spot imo.
I do not think a preflop jam is the way to go either, we do want SOME action from one of these two.
post flop as played, I would bet more as well, given your stack, you are never folding to a shove after you bet 2k, I jam so they have to pay for their draws. Though the shove is larger than a pot size bet, I do not want 2 people getting more cards, you need to protect your hand and the pot already represtents a significant increase to our stack. If we were heads up with one of these guys, I would bet closer to 2750-3k.
June 5, 2012
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Van H3Lzing said:
Also @ Floppedbackdoor, I did consider shoving and if I had a few less chips I prolly would have. Funny thing Is If I have AK/AQs/jj/qq here Im jamming pre so maybe my logic and balancing is flawed??
Just a horrible spot coz you want to get max value from AA as you said but you dont want to let 2 others in for cheap. If UTG folds then I dont see a competent player flatting my 3b in his spot.
I agree with the range you gave him also but surely if he had any of those he would just let me continue barrelling considering I have Pot left whether I have the goods or air.
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
3,960 games 0.000 secs 792,000 games/sec
Board: Jh Tc 8d 4h
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.273% 37.27% 00.00% 1476 0.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 62.727% 62.73% 00.00% 2484 0.00 { QQ-TT, 88 }
Even if we take out a combo or two of QQ, we're still okay. Adding JTs or other goofy stuff doesn't really change things either.
Looks like cry/shove time.
May 30, 2012
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I personally 3 bet shove with the 25bb stack. It is a perfect 3 bet shoving/squeeze stack and widens your range. When you 3 bet small or even 3x you look super nutty IMO. We want the villains to think we are using our fe to steal and get looked up by a big ace or middle pairs. If they fold, we scoop a nice pot with bets, blinds, and antes.
May 30, 2012
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Thanks for the posts guys. He felt super nutted after seeing him in 10 tables at the same time.
He had 444 which is about right. I think in the future I will either 3b larger or Jam pre (as this is what I would do with other hands in this spot)
May 31, 2012
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In response to the 3bet shove solution that's been brought up, I just want to bring up stuff I've noticed. I've watched a lot of the sweat videos and I feel like I've seen 3bet shoving with the slightly wider part of the range and then 3betting smaller to get max value from your villain when you have the monsters. I think I may have seen this happen moreso when hero is down to 12-15 blinds and instead of open shoving the monsters in mid position, raising to get shoved on. This makes sense if we think about what floppedbackdoortrips said about balance. If you don't have a lot of history with the villain, and this situation hasn't happened yet in your history with him, then why not pull the move that probably gets most value in the first instance (though it's exploitable later)? And if they are willing to call your 3bet OOP but not willing to call your shove, then getting more value is in the 3bet (and the reverse would be true for your other hands). You obviously don't want the multiple callers though, so I definitely think bigger 3bet with that flatter already. If the 3x is likely to be called from both opponents, you can shove the flop nicely. If one, then double barrel to get it in. Eventually, this is something that would have to be balanced as time moves on, but if this situation is new for your opponent still, there's no reason I can think of not to utilize it.
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