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great or bad fold OTR vs tight opponent?
folding_aces_pre_yo
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February 15, 2016 - 1:43 pm
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#Game No : 764707227
***** 888poker Hand History for Game 764707227 *****
$100/$200 Blinds No Limit Holdem – ***
Tournament #77346199 Free 10 Max (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 2: thrasher71 ( $4,294 )
Seat 3: cs399 ( $5,225 )
Seat 4: london_ace ( $2,892 )
Seat 5: SSJarch ( $9,076 )
Seat 6: TroyLee1990 ( $1,588 )
Seat 7: KilerGirl30 ( $4,331 )
Seat 9: Desempleados ( $2,834 )
Seat 10: Joey_2012 ( $3,235 )
Desempleados posts ante [$25]
london_ace posts ante [$25]
SSJarch posts ante [$25]
thrasher71 posts ante [$25]
KilerGirl30 posts ante [$25]
cs399 posts ante [$25]
Joey_2012 posts ante [$25]
TroyLee1990 posts ante [$25]
cs399 posts small blind [$100]
london_ace posts big blind [$200]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to london_ace [ Aheart, Tclub ]
SSJarch raises [$400]
TroyLee1990 folds
KilerGirl30 folds
Desempleados folds
Joey_2012 calls [$400]
thrasher71 folds
cs399 folds
london_ace calls [$200]
** Dealing flop ** [ 3diamond, 7heart, Adiamond ]
london_ace checks
SSJarch checks
Joey_2012 checks
** Dealing turn ** [ Qclub ]
london_ace checks
SSJarch checks
Joey_2012 checks
** Dealing river ** [ Theart ]
london_ace bets [$555]
SSJarch raises [$8,651]
Joey_2012 folds
london_ace folds

 

hey

 

reads – V has been playing tight.

 

reason why i checked turn was because i thought there’s a good chance v may check back flop with strong Ax  or a set, spr is really small so they may slow play here more often then not. Though given that the board has a 2 flush and we are in a multi way pot i reckon they are likely to bet their monsters otf rather then check them. Do you agree?

 

Otr I bet 1/3 pot as i thought v range is weak, when they shove the only hand that makes sense is KJs. If they had a hand like 77/QQ or AQ i reckon they would of likely bet these ott so those are heavily discounted. I also reckon they wont be bluffing with missed draws here.

 

Thoughts please?

 

Cheers.

Foucault

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February 15, 2016 - 3:00 pm
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Fold seems fine, but how does checking turn save you money vs a set? 

folding_aces_pre_yo
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February 15, 2016 - 4:37 pm
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it doesn’t but by checking we get to keep the weaker part of their range in , K-Q , J-Q which they may bet for value ott. If they did bet ott , are you check/shoving turn or c/c turn and re-evaluating river?

 

i reckon if we c/c turn we should also c/c river because they may even bet these hands  like K-Q for value otr as well. Our hand is under-repped when we check both flop and turn.

 

thoughts on that?

Foucault

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February 15, 2016 - 5:58 pm
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I can’t promise you how any particular opponent will play, but you should realize that your opponent has more incentive to call bets with second-best hands than he has to bet them. Bluff-catching is rarely a significantly +EV proposition. That doesn’t mean it’s generally incorrect, but it’s more of a “lesser of two evils” thing than a spot you should actively be trying to create. What you’re doing here is really the opposite of pot control – you’re giving your opponent the option to get to the river for free when he wants to and also turn your (valuable) hand into a 0 EV bluff-catcher by betting a polarized range. You may be right that your bluff-catching will be +EV because you could be ahead of some portion of V’s value range, but in those cases you almost always do better by betting yourself than by bluff-catching. Save the bluff-catching for hands that aren’t strong enough to value bet.

joelshitshow
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February 15, 2016 - 6:29 pm
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With 14 bigs, what kind of flop are you hoping for when you call pre? I realize it’s 6.5:1 to flat, but how did you feel about your hand with TPGK? Would you have check-shoved the flop or turn if someone had bet?

Foucault

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February 15, 2016 - 7:38 pm
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joelshitshow said
With 14 bigs, what kind of flop are you hoping for when you call pre? I realize it’s 6.5:1 to flat, but how did you feel about your hand with TPGK? Would you have check-shoved the flop or turn if someone had bet?

That’s a good question to ask, but there’s more to “hope for”, as you say, than just the flop itself. It’s a combination of cards and opponent actions that create good situations for you. I’d say what happened here (prior to the river) is basically ideal: Ace on the flop, and everyone checks. You may be thinking that’s a lot to ask for you, and you’re right, but there are other (less) +EV spots, and you can afford to be picky when you’re getting such good odds to see the flop.

I think there’s a subtext in your question that Hero’s stack size means he has to commit to playing for all of his chips if he puts in any post-flop. FWIW, I don’t think that’s right, and I certainly wouldn’t do it by check-shoving: that just causes worse hands to fold and better hands to call.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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February 15, 2016 - 7:48 pm
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@foucault, Totally agree , thank you 🙂

@EvilKermit , i feel okay about my hand, it’s just that V was tight , so i thought i could be out-kicked, we do have reverse implied odds here especially against a tighter opponent?  i probably would have check shoved vs either opponents yeah or maybe c/c flop and called a turn shove. If we had c/c flop with this hand , does anyone think folding turn would be ok? i think we’d be left with like less then 10bb. If they bet turn they likely do have a hand better then AT , so i dont think folding turn would be terrible vs this opponent, just a bit difficult to fold TPGK when stacks are shallow. 

florianm1
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February 16, 2016 - 5:59 am
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are we not supposed to lead turn?

joelshitshow
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February 16, 2016 - 9:49 pm
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Foucault said

I think there’s a subtext in your question that Hero’s stack size means he has to commit to playing for all of his chips if he puts in any post-flop. FWIW, I don’t think that’s right, and I certainly wouldn’t do it by check-shoving: that just causes worse hands to fold and better hands to call.

That’s the exact subtext I had, and your response is the lesson for me on this hand. Thanks.

folding_aces_pre_yo
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February 20, 2016 - 11:13 am
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@florian,I believe so yeah, hero may extract value from 2nd best hands , Kx.

 

Totally agree with what andrew has said, c/s flop does not accomplish anything, if we did c/c flop though , are we calling a turn bet/shove or are we letting go? 

joelshitshow
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February 21, 2016 - 4:54 pm
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Letting go if you don’t improve I guess. V won’t always bet again so you’re calling in the hopes you can get to showdown or improve.

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