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Good or bad? At first I think I played terrible but when I went back I wasnt so sure?
Mobghost
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July 30, 2018 - 8:45 am
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Villian seemed like a bad player. This is a 44$BB. Final 3 tables. He was 41/29 over 50 hands. Seems pretty standard up till turn. Lemme know what you think of this.

 

PokerStars – 1250/2500 Ante 380 NL – Holdem – 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1 (UTG+1): 20.58 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
MP (MP): 82.2 BB (VPIP: 41.18, PFR: 29.41, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
Hero (CO): 57.75 BB
BTN (BTN): 52.42 BB (VPIP: 23.53, PFR: 15.15, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 35)
SB (SB): 31.52 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
BB (BB): 39.64 BB (VPIP: 37.50, PFR: 31.25, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 16)
UTG (UTG): 15.92 BB (VPIP: 17.14, PFR: 6.06, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 35)

7 players post ante of 0 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Dealt to Hero:QclubKspade
[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

fold, fold, MP raises to 2.32 BB, Hero calls 2.32 BB, fold, fold, fold

Flop (7.2 BB, 2 players): 3spadeQheart7heart
[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]
MP bets 3.24 BB, Hero calls 3.24 BB

Turn (13.69 BB, 2 players):9club
[Image Can Not Be Found]
MP checks, Hero bets 5 BB, MP raises to 15.66 BB, Hero calls 10.66 BB

River (45.01 BB, 2 players):2spade
[Image Can Not Be Found]
MP bets 40.41 BB, Hero calls 36.38 BB and is all-in

MP shows:7diamond7spade
[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]
(Three of a Kind, Sevens)
(Pre 54%, Flop 98%, Turn 100%)

Hero shows:
[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]
(One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 46%, Flop 2%, Turn 0%)

MP wins 117.76 BB

The Riceman
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August 12, 2018 - 8:50 am
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Hey mobghost, 

I’m fine with your play up until the turn. 

When I call preflop I have already decided on three things. First, I have put Villain on a range. As the stats show, MP is on the looser side, loose/ aggressive.

Secondly I have considered if I call what my range must look like to MP.

Thirdly, and critically here I have decided already by the flop that if I call with KQo how many streets of value I am looking to get off top pair very good kicker. Here I’d be looking at getting two streets max. Either MP can cbet my value, or if he checks a street, I”ll be putting it in myself. Exactly when depends on how the action plays out.

When MP checks the turn, I’d be inclined to check behind. Not many river cards can hurt you. Obviously you don’t want to see an ace, but an ace is such a good card for MP to represent, Id call another bet on the river even if one did peel. 

When you bet the turn after MP checks, you are representing TP.  When he check raises your bet, you have to ask yourself…what is he doing this with that you beat? Arguably, it could be a semi bluff with JT or hearts…but if he has a draw, and bet it on the flop, why is he suddenly switching it up with a check raise on the turn? That turn check raise gives me the shivers. I’d expect to see a flop C/R more often with a bluff. He is heavily weighted towards value hands. I doubt he’d even take this line with AQ. His line reeks of danger.

I’m folding to his turn reraise. You dont have stats for turn 3bet%, but looking at his preflop 3bet%, 0% over 50 hands…well he doesnt seem like the type who has perfected the balanced reraise…when he reraises me, I’m apt to believe he’s got it.

I guess, as we decided on trying to get two streets of value from TP, there’s an argument for calling his reraise,  but I’m really only hoping to see a Q fall. If I ever press the call button in a spot like this…I already got me a sinking feeling. [Edit: Im not hoping for a queen to fall because this might well give him the boat!]

The river call is just suicide, imo.

If he has taken this weird-ass line as a bluff though…well then so be it. He outplayed me by being a loon. The bottom line is that my stop-loss is my plan to put or have put in by MP two streets of value. I’m just not willing to call off such a huge river bet with what is, in this spot, the most marginal of made hands.

Maniackid11
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August 15, 2018 - 11:37 pm
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Riceman,

I dig what you said. Interesting perspective. To be on the debate side of this, wouldn’t you say villain is also very capable of the check-raise on the turn? As you said, he is loose aggressive. Although, I don’t necessarily think 50 hands is strong enough for us to rely on but for the sake of this discussion lets say he is LAG. (Mobghost, I’m kind of wondering what your stats are/image is at this point?)

Let’s say Mobghost is TAG. When villain checks the turn and Mob fires a little more than a 1/3 pot, it sort of looks valuey, so I can see where it seems to rep. TP/protect against draws. IDK how I feel about sizing though. im almost thinking maybe a little bit bigger? IDK, then again it’s almost perfect size for how everything played out if you fully plan to bet/call then fold to aggression on the river. Villains river sizing seems like he’s trying to get HERO off his hand though. IDK what do you guys think?

Since villain is LAG, it would make sense for him to C/R here with bluffs too. What if villain had somethin like AhKh or JhTh? or even 9hTh or 9hJh where he now just picked up middle pair with a flushdraw/str8draw. So IMO I think Hero calling the turn here is perfectly fine, especially given the villains image and each players stack sizes. Because if Im villain, and I open pre, get flatted by CO, Cbet flop, get called again, Im thinking also, not only does Mobghost have some queens in his range, he could have some QTs, TTs, 76, 86.  some weaker hands that might float the flop . I mean, after the flop villain has roughly 75bigs and hero has roughly 50bigs. He could be trying to get him off his weaker hands, and since hero fires a smaller size turn bet it seems exactly like TP/MP.

if im villain I would put in a check raise on the turn oop with a lot of draws fully planning to fire any river depending how hero reacts if i think he might fold a lot of his weaker hands. and villains size on the river looks exactly like hes doing that. Does this sound right to you MobGhost? what are you thinking in this spot? Again tho, I don’t really know what Mob looks like to villain. if he is TAG, Villain might know this, and Mob might know villain knows this and try to blow him off his hand on the river. Because even if he was bluffing and HERO called, villain would still have roughly 20bb left. Its final three tables, right?

Idk I think Im leveling myself here a little bit but I think HERO is fine until the river. IMO, I dont hate a call here I don’t love it either given villains percieved image but due to the fact that its only 35 hands for this session or 50 hands total, I wouldnt rely on that and I would agree with Riceman about the fold here. Lets be honest, if you fold here Ghost, you still have roughly 30-35bb left. You can still make something happen. But idk with the final three tables, and a pot of 90 bbs i might also call. Interesting hand though.

almofadinhas
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August 19, 2018 - 9:51 pm
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The Riceman said
…but if he has a draw, and bet it on the flop, why is he suddenly switching it up with a check raise on the turn? That turn check raise gives me the shivers. …

Loved that! Definitely should add this shivers thing to my play, I feel like a calling station sometimes don´t giving this sort of line enough credit, trying to improve that still.

P-aire 146
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August 26, 2018 - 11:45 am
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I agree with everything Riceman has to say about the hand.  I don’t mind anything till the calling of C/R on turn.  What are you putting him on at that point.  Even a bad/loose/passive/fish will have a strong (nutted) hand once in a while.  This hand was for your tourney.  Did your ego come into play here?  I have to admit, I have had players I thought were “BAD” labeled in my notes because of things they have done during tourneys ONLY to find out they are good regs or PROS with lots of results.  Ex.  During the WSOP $3200 online bracelet event.  Matt Berkley had a very strong hand and the other player did something Matt thought was very bad and spewy, Matt ends up busting that hand.  This hand was on his website’s VLOG and you see Matt telling the player how bad he played the hand blah blah blah.  Guess who that player was……….  it turned out to be the LEGEND Chris Moorman, prob the winningest online player ever.  I say that because you never know who some players are with playing them ONLY a few hands. Now, he could be an absolute FISH.  But, EGO comes into play ever hand esp when we think we are much better then other players and they test us.  I only say it because I have made this mistake many times both LIVE and ONLINE.  Why call the river bet?  So you put him on a bluff the entire way?  What story is he telling you? He’s SHOUTING he has AA, KK, QQ, 77, or 33 at best.  Sure, he could be bluffing, but it’s for your tourney life.  If he is bluffing and shows, just tap the table and say GOOD one.  Players forget that folding can be the best option at times.  Sometimes we let our EGO get in the way of the proper move to prove a point.  A hand like this is tough, but it’s about learning and getting better the next time this spot comes up.  

DuckinDaDeck
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August 27, 2018 - 6:07 pm
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I think that calling the X/R on the turn is defensible, although I do prefer folding. His raise is relatively small at 45% so you’re getting a decent price, but that may not be enough. You will see some check-raise turn bluffs but the majority of the field will be extremely weighted toward value when taking this line. Strong players will obviously have some bluffs here, some may even be over-bluffing (I think this line can be very profitable vs. the midstakes reg population), but you’re going to be making less (and smaller) mistakes by erring on the side of overfolding your one pair hands. Nothing wrong with getting sticky when we have a lot of evidence that someone is getting out of line, but I do mean A LOT of evidence. I will adjust in less than 50 hands against the occasional spewy fish, but I value seeing hands at showdown, weird bet sizings, and extremely frequent post-flop aggression much higher than any preflop stats.

The river is the only decision that I’m strongly against in this hand. I think it’s safe to say we aren’t beating any value hands, so we’re only happy if the villain is both over-bluffing the turn and not giving up on many rivers after doing so. I can see some hands like JheartTheart, KheartJheart, Theart8heart loving this turn line, but those hands block so many of our busted draws that they may decide not to bluff the river at least some of the time. The 2 is about as blank a river as I can imagine, so villain may also decide they simply can’t rep enough hands to shove. Not having a heart, a jack, or a ten in our hand does make this a slightly better bluff catcher, but I’m not convinced that is enough.

We need to be right ~ 31% of the time to break even on chipEV, but way more often considering the value of our tourney life (not to mention the ICM considerations of being down to final 3 tables of a large tourney). It’s also worth some consideration (only when our call/fold decisions are very close) that your 36bb stack still covers a few players at the table, allowing you to fight for bounties in future hands. All that being said, I’m still guilty of stubborn calls a little too often in similar situations. As P-aire mentions, ego will always mess with us if we let it and, for me at least, it’s a constant battle to separate my strategic thoughts from my more emotionally driven ones. 

With a large enough database (ie. >500k hands) you might want to run some filters for ‘called turn raise/called turn check-raise,’ and ‘folded to turn raise/folded to turn check-raise.’ You’ll almost certainly be losing heaps in all 4 scenarios, but it may be worth comparing the bb/100 of each play. If you want to go a bit deeper you can filter for ‘hand strength = top pair good kicker OR top pair top kicker,’ and ‘hand strength = 2 pair’ to compare those numbers for each of the 4 situations. If you’re feeling really ambitious (and have a database > 1mil hands) you can go deeper down the rabbit hole and filter for some common board textures. It’s also probably worth filtering by effective stacks, but I can’t give any particular recommendations for that as I haven’t experimented with it.

When I did some deep dives into my database a while back, I was shocked by how poorly two pair was doing at showdown against this line. I was guilty of thinking “two pair is too strong to fold” on way too many rivers, so these numbers must have improved as I get better at poker, but I’m often not exactly thrilled when I’ve got two pair facing a turn check-raise.

The Riceman
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August 28, 2018 - 7:26 pm
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M-Kid, yes I do think it’s possible that villain has a draw and is taking this line. In fact I find your argument quite persuasive. In summation though, I agree with everything DDD says. He synthesizes then crystallizes nebulous ideas in my mind, articulates them, and even transcribes them at TPE for me, ideas I didn’t even know I had. In fact I don’t even think he is real. He is a bot of some kind designed to forum post. And designed by Andrew Brokos I have no doubt…wink [Edit: on 2nd thoughts, he is designed by Nate Meyvis on behalf of Andrew!].

DDD said,

As P-aire mentions, ego will always mess with us if we let it and, for me at least, it’s a constant battle to separate my strategic thoughts from my more emotionally driven ones.”

Don Corleone says,

“Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgement.”.

(The Godfather, Part III).

Crap movie, but that quote always stuck in my mind. If ever I start attaching negative emotion towards another player, it always pops in to my mind. smile

3for3
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August 29, 2018 - 9:41 am
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I didn’t like the call when I saw this on 2+2.  Yes, a perfectly balanced villain might take this line with a big draw, but when I see Bet, check raise IRL, it always nutted.  Perhaps we could all try this line with a big draw IRL ourselves.  It does have the benefit of either getting a free card from OOP, or putting Villain in a tough spot with all of his middle strength hands, which is often what one will see here from Villains line of call/float, then bet turn from IP

DuckinDaDeck
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August 30, 2018 - 8:34 pm
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The Riceman said
In fact I don’t even think he is real. He is a bot of some kind designed to forum post. And designed by Andrew Brokos I have no doubt…wink [Edit: on 2nd thoughts, he is designed by Nate Meyvis on behalf of Andrew!].

How did you know?!? We created the less useful and needlessly verbose alternative to PokerSnowie.

Maniackid11
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August 30, 2018 - 10:38 pm
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Excellent, fellas. I like everything you guys have said. I for one am big-time guilty of wanting to see what Villain could possibly have. If I wasn’t, then I would have no clue that his check raise almost always reps. a set.

So, IMO although you made mistakes I have made too, you have also gained the knowledge/experience of the check/raise that usually means a set+. If I venture to say, although you lost that battle, I do believe the war is fought on more than one front. Chalk it up to a lesson learned. I might as well say thank you while I am at it because I will also try to learn from this experience. Every time I face this same situation in the future, I will remember this thread.

Thanks everyone.

 

~Maniac1130

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