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General Strategy - Bounty Tourmanments
TheClubber
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May 21, 2015 - 4:22 pm
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I have a lot of questions on how the presence of bounties affects how you should approach a tounament. I looked in the video archive and didn't see this topic covered

 

1. When you play a bounty tournament, what strategy adjustments do you make to adjust to the structure? Do you p;ay more hands to have more chances for bounties by just being in more pots, or do you play fewer hands so your relative chip stack is higher than more of your opponents so there are more you can knock out? Do you use larger bet sizes in the pots you enter to have a greater chance of getting all in by the river? When you are short, do you shove with a tighter range since your opponents have more incentive to call? 

2. The more basic question is are bounty tournament inherently more or less profitable than the typical payout structure? Given a bounty tournament and a standard payout tournament of the same buy-in, should you always select the standard payout structure? If you're focusing purely on profitability, what advantage would bounties have over standard payout? When selecting tournaments, what percentage of the buy-in for the bounty is too high?

Fire
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May 21, 2015 - 7:46 pm
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I would like to hear some more opinions on that too. Although Im fairly experienced in these, Ive won at least three (small stakes) large field bounty MTTs that I can remember and final tabled many more. My take is this: Normally I play them pretty much like any other tourney, but I dont play very tight, if you're playing tight you might make some adjustments. I mean hands that have the potential to win large pots (and thereby knock someone out) you should normally play anyway, if they're not too expensive. When the situation arises that someone is all-in or is very likely to go all-in because he has only few blinds left you can make some adjustments and play or call with some marginal hands that you might fold otherwise because of the added EV of the bounty but this depends on many factors, particularly how much you risk relative to your stack, how big the bounty is relative to the buy-in etc. You might also isoshove in some spots that you normally wouldnt, you see this very often in bounty MTTs. But as long as the prize pool is large relative to the bounties I wouldnt recommend making any moves that are clearly -chipEV especially when its for significant proportion of your stack.

There is also a big difference between bounty and progressive bounty MTTs. In progressive bounty MTTs the bounties get bigger the more you progress, so you should be less inclined to go for the smaller bounties early on, which in effect makes it again play more like a normal MTT.

I dont really understand 2. I mean one effect they certainly have is that they have lower variance because they give some payouts without needing to make it into the top 10-15%. Otherwise, depending on how good you understand the structure, they are like normal MTTs, I mean if you understand the specifics well you can exploit some players who might not understand it well and vice versa. As for what percentage, it really doesnt matter, theoretically you could play with 100 % on bounties, then you would really need to make some more adjustments but I have not seen more than 50 % offered.

OneTime1Time
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May 22, 2015 - 1:21 am
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I play a lot of the PKO's because they are super fun, with some really high upswing potential. I'm seeing less variance overall in the KO/PKO tournaments vs regular. Could just be me. 

For strategy, I don't change my ranges very much, except for when calling short stack shoves. Range goes super huge. I will isolate shove with hands like J4s if the situation is right, purely to go after a players bounty (This only ever really happens in PKO's). My shoving range actually gets a lot wider as I get shorter, becuase I have very little issues with having to gamble a short stack. That's a personal approach. I know I'm going to get called much wider, so more of my range is going to be good versus their calling range.

There is some maths involved with how many chips you should be willing to call vs what a persons bounty is and how that relates to prize pool. I'm not sure how to explain it exactly. Try to watch a pro streaming in the PKO tomorrow, and ask them in chat.

I do have, and have noticed a LOT of players (especially today in the 100 and 1000 PKO SCOOP events) using larger bet sizes. Much larger than standard. I think part of it has to do with the extra incentive there is to bust players, because of the monetary gain from knocking them out. We play stacks more aggressively because there is often an immediate return for doing so, vs a normal tournament where there is usually a bigger gain from playing a lot smaller and slower. 

emb
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May 24, 2015 - 7:07 am
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For me, one of the key things is to recognise situations where other people overestimate the benefit of winning bounties and make mistakes because of it.  A lot of these situations arise when there are very short stacks at the table.

 

emb

PlasticPearl
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May 24, 2015 - 8:30 am
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I think it makes a huge difference whether it is a 'regular' bounty or a PKO. In regular bounty tournaments I might be more aggressive early on where the bounty might make a large percentage of my return on the tournament, but in the later stages when you're playing for the big money it really isn't much of a consideration. In a PKO, its reverse. The real money is to be made by going deep and collecting bounties when they are larger. And not that I would ever avoid knocking someone out, but if the bounty on your head is smaller later in the tournament it can give you more room to manouever.

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jedimindpicks
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May 24, 2015 - 8:43 am
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Just going to add a few of my thoughts here and some of my observations in certain Bounty Mtt's. I have been playing bounties much more as of late and they have proved to be quite profitable.

First thing I have started doing is late reg the 2nd level. I cut out the 10-20 level and I find that I miss little action but often sit with a small chip lead over a decent part of the table putting thier bounties in play from the start. I do my best in the early levels not to get over involved in pots but rather maintain and slowly build a stack so I keep pther stacks bounties in play for me as much as possible. Players are less likely to play a wide range vs players with even slightly larger stacks. I am trying to use the factors the bounty adds to my advantage as much as possible. For this reason if I am short or just have less chips than villian(s) I am always betting larger for value because I am getting called wider. I think treating this format like other MTT's is a mistake because the prize pool is greatly reduced and unless we finish in a high spot we miss out on a ton of value with out collecting the bounties along the way. Thankfully most of the time we get deep we will likely have picked up a couple along the way. 

Things get interesting when very short stack(s) are in the pot of have already gone allin. Players are often calling and over calling very wide and they make for very profitable iso's. I give the over callers very little credit for big hands and for this reason when I see a big stack reraising light in attempt to get hu with short stack I will flat very strong in this spot.

Short stack play can be very tough because we loose fold equity very quickly. I like to start push fold with a slightly larger stack than I normally would and if I get really short I may find spots to limp if I'm not shoving when I am really short. I find that doing this I invite players to over limp and hope for a single player to iso. This builds a much bigger pot pre and hopefully gets me HU a decent amount instead of jamming and getting what is often 2-3 callers.

TheClubber
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May 26, 2015 - 2:08 pm
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I like the idea when you're too short for fold equity to limp and let the big stack iso. Really clever.

TheClubber
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May 26, 2015 - 2:13 pm
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Fire said:

I mean one effect they certainly have is that they have lower variance because they give some payouts without needing to make it into the top 10-15%. Otherwise, depending on how good you understand the structure, they are like normal MTTs, I mean if you understand the specifics well you can exploit some players who might not understand it well and vice versa. As for what percentage, it really doesnt matter, theoretically you could play with 100 % on bounties, then you would really need to make some more adjustments but I have not seen more than 50 % offered.

I would think that bounty tournaments increase variance. Sure you can get some of your buy-in back without making the top 10-15%, but winning any bounty hand seems to have more randonmness over skill than running deep in a tournament. I don't play many bounties, so I'm interested why you think the opposite.

Fire
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May 26, 2015 - 5:29 pm
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TheClubber said:

Fire said:

I mean one effect they certainly have is that they have lower variance because they give some payouts without needing to make it into the top 10-15%. Otherwise, depending on how good you understand the structure, they are like normal MTTs, I mean if you understand the specifics well you can exploit some players who might not understand it well and vice versa. As for what percentage, it really doesnt matter, theoretically you could play with 100 % on bounties, then you would really need to make some more adjustments but I have not seen more than 50 % offered.

I would think that bounty tournaments increase variance. Sure you can get some of your buy-in back without making the top 10-15%, but winning any bounty hand seems to have more randonmness over skill than running deep in a tournament. I don't play many bounties, so I'm interested why you think the opposite.

Winning a single bounty may be more random than getting ITM in a tourney, but it is a) an event that happens much more frequently, b) is also related to your skill (as good players will, on average, make it farther in tourneys and have more chips), c) in normal bounty tourneys the payout structure is flat (same amount for each bounty). All those effects lower variance but a) is the most important one.

Fire
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June 15, 2015 - 7:38 pm
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Interesting hand, Ill put it in this thread:

Poker Stars $12.30+$12.25+$2.45 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t600/t1200 Blinds + t150 – 9 players

Hero (BTN): t78038         M = 24.77
SB: t40097         M = 12.73
BB: t35323         M = 11.21
UTG: t44723         M = 14.20
UTG+1: t3260         M = 1.03
UTG+2: t37571         M = 11.93
MP1: t19603         M = 6.22
MP2: t30089         M = 9.55
CO: t24185         M = 7.68

Pre Flop: (t3150) Hero is BTN with
XX
UTG raises to t2800, UTG+1 raises to t3110 all in, 2 folds, MP2 raises to t29939 all in, 1 fold, Hero raises to t77888 all in, 3 folds

 

PS $27 PSKO

The interesting point is UTG+1 has around 60$ in KO bounties and MP2 140$, so if I knock out both I'll get around 100 $ instantly. We're ITM but with around 60 players left, to get around 100$ more in tournament payout I need to make the FT. The players have shown nothing out of the ordinary, UTG is kind of active 25/16, the AIs are 22/17 and 24/17, they appear competent, UTG+1 has just lost almost all his chips.

What is the worst hand you would shove here?

joelshitshow
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June 16, 2015 - 11:03 pm
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With the bounties, I'd do 88+, AQ+.

Do people not realize how transparent this 25-bb shove is? The risk-reward if no one calls behind him as amazing with the bounties. You could probably shove even wider than what I would do.

Fire
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June 24, 2015 - 3:00 pm
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Thanks for the reply. I agree completely, that reshove of MP2 is very likely taking advantage. I think your range is still quite conservative. I actually shoved A2s knowing that I was likely behind. That was probably a little bit too liberal but I def think that MP2 could do this with some good kings and I was in ok shape against many pairs also. (MP2 had AJo, the small stack had QQ but his range is likely to be much wider also).

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