April 26, 2013
Hello nation,
this is something I have been thinking of a lot lately. The general style of play in MTT poker to me seems TAG early stages, only playing with premiums or picking on obv. fish when in position/having right odds etc. Then, as ante come into play we open our range, try to steal and resteal, iso limpers, 3/4/5/6 bet light in the best spots. Of course we always take into account our and the other players chip stacks, our and their image, including all stats we can work with.
So far so good.
Nevertheless I am very interested in alternative/out-oft-he-box playing styles. Especially pre-ante and with deep stacks there should be a lot of potential for different approaches. For example implementing limping instead of open raising in spots where we are unlikely to take the pot down uncontested. Also: how about limping instead of open-raising pre-ante as our standard play? I've read that Gus Hanson played over 60% of his hands in a tournament and took it down a while back. I really do wonder if this is a legit way to play if you know how to.
I haven't found much content of any sort of LAG play here on TPE. A live sweat with this sort of stuff would be awesome, but as a starting point I really would like to know what the pros think about some of these ideas and if and how they practice LAG play.
November 22, 2013
Imo it is all table dependent. I believe you are referring to the Aussie Millions tournament as described in Every Hand Revealed, by Gus Hansen. The thing to keep in mind about Gus is that he is a sicko (so don't try this at home) and was also playing 10 years ago in a live tournament setting when/where the general style was TAG. If you are playing LAG and everyone else is playing TAG, you should be able to steal a lot and do very well until they make adjustments, then you change gears again. However, if you are playing against loose-passive call stations or maniacs and try to play LAG its akin to slamming your own head against a brick wall. Sure if you slam hard enough maybe the brick wall will budge, but idk why you would want to try! Also keep in mind in that tournament that he was down to 12K from 20K and doubled up three times to finish day 1 with close 100K but all three times when he doubled up his opponents made dubious (read terrible) calls based on his presumed image. So there is some luck involved whenever you are playing a lot of pots. In one sense you are giving yourself a chance to hit more flops but on the other hand you are putting chips in the middle and that will lead to an early exit if you don't hit.
On the other hand, 60% isn't even that much imo. Recently I played in a 6max ACR tournament and placed 4th, getting knocked out only because I had gotten sucked out on twice in the space of two hands but had been a major chip leader for quite a while. I knew I was playing I lot of hands so I looked back and my VPIP was > 90%. I've also won tournaments in live where my VPIP was probably >60%. But it really depends on the weaknesses of your opponent. If they have some obvious, exploitable post-flop errors then by raising so many hands you not only get a chance to steal blinds but you get a chance to outplay them post-flop. However, there are situations where playing a lot of hands is suicide. It seems every time I try to open up online in the early stages of tournaments I am getting 3 and 4 bet with air with weak hands. The easy adjustment to that is to wait until you have premiums and just ship it in when you have the better of it. It's really simple, just wait until you have a hand that is solidly ahead of their range, and try to get as many chips in the middle as possible. Generally, by the time the antes are introduced most of the maniacs will have been eliminated and you will be facing TAGs and maybe 1 other LAG, enabling you to steal at will. Maybe you get unlucky and get another LAG or two at your table, but it's pretty easy to stay out of pots against those guys, or else just wait until you have the better of it and rope them in.
The reason why LAG is successful for so many guys isn't because it is intrinsically a better style…It is because there are so many marginal players that exploiting their weaknesses yields a higher EV than playing closer to GTO. Playing more hands gives you more opportunity to exploit those weaknesses. However, if players make the proper adjustments now they are exploiting you because you're playing too many marginal hands.
I would stop thinking of things in terms of style, but rather in terms of exploitation, and initiative. Generally, you will make more money by exploiting the weakness of others rather than shoring up your own. Playing with initiative is better than not, meaning you generally want to have position, and also you want to take the initiative in the hand. E.g. rather than flatting, a lot of the time throwing a small 3 bet out there won't make a substantial difference in the value of the pot relative to your stack (especially if you are deepstacked) but it gives the illusion of initiative in which case its alot easier to take down the pot with post flop stabs.
Early in tournaments though I think the best thing to do is mix it up. Sometimes I will 3 bet with marginal holdings just to see what my opponents will do and since the blinds are low it's very cheap information. Other times I will flat a raise with a premium not only to induce a squeeze but also because it doesn't hurt to see cheap flops every now and then. It's important not to always do this because then your opponents will/should catch on that strong means weak in your case, but doing it every once in a while can really give opponents a false perception of your range, which will come in handy later on. Basically don't be afraid to engage in suboptimal lines early on if you think it can set something else later when its going to be a lot more value.
As far as LAG content goes, it’s hard to imagine anyone more LAG than BigDog once the antes are introduced. However, he plays very tight early because there simply isn’t much reason to fight for pitiful blinds that early. Agreed that most TPE pros are pretty tight, but I also think that’s an adjustment you have to make to counteract the aggression of online play. In live, my experience has been that I can pretty much steal at will a lot of the time.
November 22, 2013
I also think that because terms such as LAG and TAG are not clearly defined, that like minds can differ. But when you're LAG I don't think the primary goal is to bluff, contrary to popular opinion. I think the goals of a LAG are three-fold: 1) Steal a lot of blinds; 2) Cultivate a loose image; 3) Use that image and the fact that you are seeing a lot of flops to exploit your opponent's tendencies and outplay your opponent post-flop. That may include post-flop bluffing if your opponents are folding too much. However, it could also mean LESS post-flop bluffing if your opponents try to adjust by calling down lighter. You are allowed to hit flops, even as a LAG, and I know a number of players who raise a lot pre-flop and post-flop get a ton of value when they hit. But they don't bluff a lot. I think Gus is one of those players who play like that.
April 26, 2013
Well, I guess tendentially I've already been playing LAG as soon as antes come into play and the table allows it. My VPIP may go up to 30 – 40%, raising with QTo, 76s, J9s and stuff like that, and very rarely, when I feel I've got a 50%+ chance to steal even with total RAGs like 93o etc. Also my defend BB is pretty high when I see bad players stealing too much.
Still I can never in a million years imagine playing 60% – 90% of hands. How could that ever be possible unless your opponents fold every time to a cbet without toppair/overpair on the flop?
November 22, 2013
As he said, it depends on the tournament. Once the antes are introduced I will just start raising. It depends more on the situation than the cards. If it is folded to me and the blinds have not shown a propensity to defend I will raise with any two cards. It literally doesn't matter and honestly its probably best to not even look. If the blinds are 100/200 with a 25 ante in a six max tournament then there is already 450 in the middle. If you min-raise to 400 and the blinds fold >50% of the time then you show an immediate profit. Even if they defend, they will fold to a cbet the majority of the time, even if the cbet itself is only 400-500. Presumably, you also should be able to outplay your opponent post-flop as well, adding additional profit. Finally, sometimes you will actually have a hand, and you may induce an opponent to play back at you at the wrong time.
As far as defending goes, it would be inaccurate to say I always defend my blinds. For example, if it is a 3bet pot, obviously I will require a premium to 4 bet. However, if my opponents are minraising, everyone is folding, and I can close the action with a call from the BB, I will do it with any 2 cards and I won't even look. Maybe that is being a little too defensive; however, I believe the math supports the call. If you take the same scenario of 100/200 blinds with 25 ante, my opponent min-raises to 400, then the pot is 850. So I need to call 200 in a 850 pot. That gives me better than 4 to 1 odds so it would be a huge error to not call. Basically the only time it would be incorrect mathematically to call would be if my opponent had an overpair, e.g. AA to my 93o. But that doesn't happen often enough to dissuade me from defending. Even a woeful 93o has almost 40% against AKs. You have to be able to outplay your opponents post-flop to win a tournament imo and you can't be afraid to take small losses. Additionally, if my opponent has shown a propensity to steal from late position too often I will just 3bet him a couple of times to see what happens. If he 4bets me then I know to wait until I have a premium and 5 bet him. If he folds then I know I have an opponent who has the very exploitable error of raising too often from the button and folding too often to a 3 bet. And if he calls I'll just do the old trick of 3bet preflop and bet small on the flop. Most players find this to be really annoying because presumably you have a premium because you 3bet and when you bet small they think that screams of a value bet so they just fold. Once the antes are introduced the entire game of poker disintegrates to a fight for the blinds/antes and at that point the cards don't really matter. If you think about it, they would only matter if you got it all in, if someone folds at any point during the hand, then the cards never mattered.
That particular tournament was an outlier though. First off, it was a 6 max so you should already be playing 50% more hands than 9 handed. So even if you are a tight player playing top 20%, then you should play top 30% six max. Secondly, I was running good, being dealt a solid hand often, at least >50% of the time, so even if I was ordinarly tight I would have still played 50% of my hands. Third, when I was defending I was hitting two pair an insane amount of the time, and stacking opponents. Fourth, this lead to having an image where I don't think opponents wanted to play against me because I was getting so lucky so everyone was just folding to my raises. Fifth, if everyone is folding I'm just going to keep raising with any two until I get 3 bet often enough for me to change gears. I was also 2 and 3 barrelling a lot so opponents were just going to wait for a premium and slow play it. So I was raising more than usual in the tournament.
Nevertheless on average, I would still say my VPIP is > 60% once the antes are introduced. I can't remember a time in a tournament where my VPIP was less than say 40%.
November 22, 2013
Sen said:
Well, I guess tendentially I’ve already been playing LAG as soon as antes come into play and the table allows it. My VPIP may go up to 30 – 40%, raising with QTo, 76s, J9s and stuff like that, and very rarely, when I feel I’ve got a 50%+ chance to steal even with total RAGs like 93o etc. Also my defend BB is pretty high when I see bad players stealing too much.
Still I can never in a million years imagine playing 60% – 90% of hands. How could that ever be possible unless your opponents fold every time to a cbet without toppair/overpair on the flop?
As far as this range goes, I'm not sure I would even call this LAG in a 6max high ante tournament, for example. As a baseline I like to compare the value of the blinds/antes to the number of players at the table to get how many hands I should be playing. In other words, 10 handed with no antes, that is 1.5 BB and 10 players, so I should be playing top 15% hands. I can mix in some steals here and there but 15% is the baseline, so basically just AK, AQs, KQs, and pairs. If you compare that to its polar opposite, which is 6max with antes, that is quite different. If the antes add up to 1 BB then you have 2.5BB for 6 players, which means you already should be raising any above average hand. Q9o is the average hand so you should be raising anything better than that. In that situation raising with a hand such as Q10 isn't even stealing, it's raising for VALUE. So it really depends on the situation. My VPIP in early stages of 10 handed tournaments is restricted strictly to premiums and I open up from there.
Another thing is that HUD stats are not perfect. They are useful, but not perfect. I think most players fail to adequately adjust to the situation they are in. Basically, they play too many hands when there are no antes, and aren't aggressive enough post-ante. If I look at myself, I might play 15% of hands pre-ante, but in some 6 max tournaments I may play 85% of hands post-ante. So if you looked at my HUD my VPIP will be somewhere between 40% and 50%. If someone interprets that to mean I'm a LAG and 3bets me light in the early stages of a tournament he will be disappointed when I 4bet him with only superpremiums and he stacks off with AJo.
April 26, 2013
A ton of great info here, thanks so much.
About the HUD thing: Just looking at the numbers can no doubt lead to misinterpretation. Early in tourneys, if I sit with a player I already got a good sample of data, I normally switch to session-stats to see how they are playing right at the moment compared to my collected average.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
Interesting discussions here guys. A few things I want to stress:
– There's a reason why 'Every Hand Revealed' is often referred to as 'the worst poker strategy book ever written'. It's mostly composed of Gus making incredibly unbalanced and exploitative plays based on really specific reads he had on his opponents, and while it's partially useful in teaching us how to make live reads on opponents, Gus runs really good for big portions of the tournament and his playing style is basically impossible to replicate. A lot of the plays he makes just happened to look good because they worked that particular time, when in reality they could have blown up in his face.
– People make way too big a deal about TAG vs LAG style. If you want to be good at poker, you need to be able to play any style, at any stage of the game, depending on playing conditions. Playing TAG is probably a big mistake at a really soft table, and playing LAG is probably a big mistake at a table where you're the fish.
– When it comes to HUD stats, I think some people are approaching this the wrong way. Your HUD stats are a reflection of your decisions, they're not the decisions in themselves. It's very important to distinguish between “this guy to my right has a 20% stat for opening in the hijack”, and “this guy to my right is opening in the hijack, and I think he has a range of about 20% of hands”. Past stats are just an indicator of future behaviours – you'll never have a big enough sample to use them to the extent that cash players do.
– As for your own HUD stats, you would have to get a pretty insanely tight table draw for playing 60% of hands or more to be even remotely a good idea over a sample of 300 hands. Once you get to a certain level of aggression your table image changes, people play back at you more and the profitability of certain plays decreases, so you stop making them. This is why managing your image is important. If you raise two hands in a row, your range probably doesn't change the second time. The third time, your range should get tighter because people are going to start realising you're raising a lot of hands, and so on through the fourth and fifth times. If you get to a point where your HUD stats are showing you playing 40% of hands over a certain sample, you better be damn sure the players at the table aren't good enough to adapt, because if they are, you're probably spewing it off. In general, you should play as loosely as the table allows you to, but don't wait until your image is destroyed before tightening up. Manage the way other people perceive you and you'll avoid tougher spots.
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