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General bet sizing question
DaKid
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May 15, 2014 - 7:52 am
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For example say I raised it up in Mid-poistion and was called by the big blind, the flop comes down

797. When I miss the flop I would attempt to make a modest bluff and try fold out a non-pair hands, for this I would probably bet about 1/3 the size of the pot. But lets say I had 99, now I'm value betting and looking to target pairs, any 7 or any 9(excuss the fact you might check sometimes) and I would probably bet 1/2 the size of the pot as you could reasonably expect to get called from these value targets.

So my question is, Is it not expliotable to be betting 1/3 the size of the pot when bluffing and value betting for 1/2 the size of the pot? Should I be balancing these sizes even though in the case of bluffing it has to work more often and in the case of value betting I lose some value? And when playing $33 mtts and less should I even be concerned about balancing my bet sizes.

f34rl3sS
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May 15, 2014 - 10:04 am
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Now I'm not an expert by any means… but normally balancing your ranges to your bet sizing.. shouldn't we be betting the same amount wether we hit or not? I was under the impression that by balancing your ranges we would bet the same amount with any hand in our range (so that we don't give off any sizing tells). So say that the flop comes down like in your example 797, with AK or 99, I would still like to bet around 1/2 pot (and actually with the flopped boat I probably check and give the villain a little rope) so that we can disguise our hand.. if our range includes 55-AA and ATs+, AJo+, KQs+, he can't ignore any part of our range if we bet the same amount with all of the hands in our range.

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong please laugh

peppergrinder
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May 15, 2014 - 10:33 am
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This confuses me too as I have often been told to bet smaller with my bluffs both pre and post flop as it doesn't have to work as often to be profitable but I intuitively feel that it is better the other way around if I am looking for a fold with my bluffs and want to keep weaker hands in with my value bets. I think if you are LAG you have to bet smaller as you do it so much and are often challenged. Also at the lower stakes you probably don't have to worry as much about balancing ranges  unless you are playing the same regs a lot. When I have a lot of tables open or I'm busy I sometimes just default to 1/2 pot for both. I guess that's lazy

takedown
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May 15, 2014 - 10:59 am
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You should be considering flop texture as well as your hand, their range and stack sizes. In your example you should probably be betting < 1/2 pot with your entire range and with your bluffs be prepared to fire a 2nd barrel depending on the turn.

Foucault

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May 16, 2014 - 9:04 am
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peppergrinder said:

When I have a lot of tables open or I'm busy I sometimes just default to 1/2 pot for both. I guess that's lazy

It's more than lazy, it's a disaster. One of the key features of no-limit hold 'em is that you're allowed to bet any amount that you want. Taking that option away from yourself is costing you a tremendous amount of value. Not to mention you are never going to get better if you are thinking so little about the situations you're in. Sorry to be mean but I really want to emphasie what a big deal this is.

Foucault

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May 16, 2014 - 9:11 am
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You're right that there's a tension here, between wanting to avoid giving away information about your hand (which would call for betting the same amount with your entire betting range) and wanting to exploit your opponent, which usually means doing something that is itself exploitable. If you bet smaller with your bluffs and he plays back more often at small bets (whether he's consciously trying to exploit you or not), then you are getting exploited.

Some patterns are harder to notice than others. Even if people who will tell you that balance doesn't matter in tournaments (these are usually people who don't really understand what balance means) don't vary their preflop raise size based on their hand. That's because they know that opponents can very easily pick up on this tendency.

I think flop, especially heads up with the big blind, spots are similar in that they happen often, everyone has a lot of experience with them, and people tend to play them a little better, which means you should try not to give away too much information with your sizing.

Once you have a more clear idea of your opponent's hand, especially if you think you know how he will play it, then you can worry less about concealing your own hand and just do whatever you can to optimize results against his hand. So if, for instance, you were sure he had a 7 and would never fold it, then you could just shove the river with your boats and check everything else. If you thought he would always fold a 7 (maybe there are flushes and straights possible) to a shove, then you should shove your bluffs but bet smaller for value. If you have no idea what he'll do with a 7, then that's a situation where you'd aim to be balanced yourself.

The thing about the example you give is that a 7 is a very small part of your opponent's range, so although it's good that you're thinking about it, it's too soon to start thinking solely about maximizing value against that one exact hand.

This is great stuff to be thinking about, though, and I can promise you'll continue to wrestle it with it for the rest of your career. This is the meat of poker right here.

DaKid
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May 17, 2014 - 8:26 pm
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So I can be unbalanced as long as I feel that I am not being exploited and once I feel that I'm being played back at, its at that point I should make adjustments? So the obvious next question is how do I know if Im being played back at? I play big field low stakes tourneys and regulary play against unknowns, the situation is not likely to come up often against the same player for me to notice he is playing back at me as oppose to just having it.

Looking at the example I gave(which was probably not the best) I think my overall flop bet size even for value should probably ere on the smaller side given that we're dealing with a dry float and weak ranges. I can then bet a bigger size on the turn and river if I suspect the villian has a hand to call me with while still getting one street of value from 22-44.

Foucault

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May 18, 2014 - 10:09 am
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You can get exploited without your opponent ever realizing what you are doing or making a conscious effort to “play back” at you. For example, let's suppose that you happen to be seated with the world's biggest nit, and on the river he will fold everything except the nuts to any bet. But you have a rule for yourself that you never bluff in low stakes tourneys unless you have a read that your opponent is a nit. Since you have never played with this guy, you don't know what a nit is, so you never bluff the river against him. As a result, he gets to show down a lot of weak hands that are nonetheless better than yours, and you lose a lot of pots that you could have won. This guy knows nothing about how you play, but you chose to do something exploitable, and you got exploited as a result.

Balance should be your default. If you choose to do something exploitable, it should be either because you have a player-specific read (this guy folds too much, so I will bluff him more often) or because you feel comfortable making assumptions about how he will play based on his appearance (if you're playing live) or just what you know about most people who play at the stakes you are playing. So maybe it's true that most low stakes players really are too loose and you can do better than balanced play by making a rule like “never bluff at low stakes”. You'll still get exploited if you run into the guy above, but you'll also exploit any players who really do call too much on the river, so overall you might be better off using this rule in the absence of a read.

The point is that you should understand when you are doing exploitable things and no what particular leak you are exploiting, so that you are capable of changing your play in situations where that leak does not exist. This is something that holds a lot of lower stakes players back from winning in tougher games, because they aren't really learning to play poker, they're just learning to exploit a few specific mistakes that are common among very weak players, and then when they play with better competition they have no idea what to do.

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