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June 12, 2012
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Thought i would post these two questions together but they have both come up for me this week and just wanted different people's opinions
1. What adjustments do people think you should make having made the final table in a large field MTT. Twice these week i have had deep runs gone into the final table 4th but have limped out in 7th and 8th. Have tried not to tighten up to give myself a chance at top three, but still find it hard to put my chips in the middle with the payjumps at a FT
2. what strategy do people feel is best in dealing with super aggro players directly to their left. Last night in the final two tables of a tournament i had the chip leader to my left and on numerous occasions when i raised he just put me all in 40bb's and i ended up tightening up.
October 6, 2010
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first question – stop looking at the lobby for the pay jumps. once you are at the final table, maybe check what is up top, but then dont check it at all till the end after that.
November 30, 2012
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Yeah, a good chiplead will always put the pressure on the midstacks. What you should do with a midstack and an active and agressive bigstack to your left is not open many hands you are not willing to shove over his three-bet, you open ATs you better damn well go with it. (But be aware when he is 3-betting in a spot thats not optimal). Shortie behind, bigstack left to act, etc.
So tighten opening ranges, be willing to shove light(ish, ATs+, AJo+, pocket 77+ etc, some T9s) over his 3-bets. Just throwing those ranges out there, it's very situational.
This is versus a good winning reg bigstack thats IP when you have a midstack.
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November 30, 2012
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Also, when you've reshoved him once or twice,feel more confident in taking good steal spots, he knows you are not playing scared money and will probably easy his aggression versus you.
*But again, be aware that I'm talking about a good bigstack, not just some donk with a bigstack, donks with a bigstack, just wait for a good hand if you can, he will call it off then.
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October 21, 2012
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Also…
1. Look for spots to steal from other tight players like if there is a guy that folds his bb too much, raise him light even if he is clear across the table and you have to do it from MP or EP. If you raise from UTG, the big stack will not reraise you from UTG+1
2. In LP, try raising bigger like 3-4x. I know I have planned to 3bet a few guys light, but didnt because they made it 4x so I figured hell, maybe I should try that some times. Be creative.
3. On the BTN, if he is reraising you big from the SB, try limp calling with hands that play well post flop. That way, you have caged him into a spot with a marginal hand OOP in a bloated pot.
4. Generally, if you simply have no spots to open, look for active players to resteal on like this guy is doing to you. Think about it. If a guy is making a play on you that works, then you can use the same play on other guys.
Great question.
November 30, 2012
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Loxxii, your number 2 advice is horrid in my opinion, the others are generally good with moderation.
on nr 4: The limp OTB is kinda experiemental. I'm not really sure about it yet as I haven't tried incorporating it in my game much. But from the SB Limp calling KT,QT+, JTs in blind vs blind might be good if he is threebetting alot of opens blind vs blind and generally putting the pressure on postflop.
The problem I have with the limp-call is that it's gonna leave you guessing alot- but i guess its not superbad if you have a feel for his betsizing and can smell out value and bluffs.
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October 21, 2012
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Horrid is a pretty strong word for something you disagree with my friend. Reminds me of my 2+2 days. Funny that you feel so strongly about a 3x raise when that was standard not long ago. (Back then, people thought a minraise was “horrid”)
The key words in number 2 are “try” and “be creative”. Here is how innovation in poker works. Somebody does something different than the standard. It works. Others try it. It works. It becomes standard. If it doesnt work, people abandon it. Nothing ventured. Nothing gained.
Yes the “new” button limp (which we called the raptor limp when it was new 10 years ago) is experimental. You might be more sure about it if you try incorporating it. If it doesnt work, that doesnt mean you suck at poker. Just abandon it. It's all good.
Yeah, I meant to mention the SB limp. Thanks Nqon. Thats a good one to try against this guy too.
July 7, 2012
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Watch some BigDog FT videos – that should cure you lol
Try not to think of it as an FT but more as trying to win a game. Your playing with counters not money until you have cashed. To make the top 3 you have to pick a few spots to put the pressure back on the other player(s) and show that you are not playing scared.
June 12, 2012
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great responses guys. Definantly shouldn't look at pay jumps as much as its just going to make me play tighter and miss spots.
The problem i was having with the aggo chip leader was he had double as many chips as everyone in the tourny from about the final 2 tables pots he was playing he was just going all in even if the opener had 40 bigs. Guess in that circumstance i should have been prepared to call lighter knowing how big a double up would have been
October 21, 2012
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He's the thing about the money. If you are playing higher than normal, then it will affect you in most cases. It's normal. The trick is to keep studying and keep playing to the point that you get used to being there.
With experience, it wont affect you as much.You go from thinking, I want to cash to I want to make the final table to I want to win. It's a natural progression.
I would absolutely freak if I mincashed the main event, but I would be upset if some fish got the better of me HU in some $1 tourney. I mincashed the $109 Sunday major on Merge not long ago. Now that that's out of the way, I plan to FT it today.
November 30, 2012
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Good point about innovation loxxii.
As you say, I shouldn't say horrid, but as you posted it I think betting more than min for the reason of making it harder for other people to 3-bet is wrong if you are doing it with your marginal holdings, if this is going to be innovative on this you need to somehow make it unexploitable, so there needs to be a balance of really strong hands. So I would rather see you say, do this with high suited connectors and pairs above QQ or something, and rest of your opening range you min open. Doing this with AQ and 66-88 is bad imo
And yeah, final table experience will help you loads 🙂
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October 21, 2012
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I agree with balancing as a general strategy and I would probably use a polarized range with with I could easily fold or get it in with in case he did do a huge 3bet. At least as a baseline and then tweak it from there depending on the villains I am facing.
I dont think it has to be unexploitable to be good. Actually, the more exploitable it is, the more profitable it is vs opponents that dont adjust. Here's an analogy…
If you are fighting a guy that has equal skills as you, you wont be able to get as many shots in because you will have to block his punches occasionally. If he does the same, then you are both fighting unexploitably and the fight will go on and on until somebody gets a lucky shot in. Out of ten times, you will win about five times.
If you are flighting a guy that sucks and just never throws a punch back at you, then there is no need to block. Any time you spend blocking for the sake of being unexploitable is wasted. (but im left open if he throws back. true, but worry about that if he ever throws back.)
A better (aka more profitable) strategy is to just cock back and throw hay makers until he passes out. Out of ten times, you will kick his candy ass ten times.
The guys that return time and time again to final tables are the ones that play exploitably vs people that dont adjust(skill) and unexploitably vs people that do(luck).
October 6, 2010
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Loxxii I think 3/4x ing it is bad, because you are assuming you get the extra fold equity out of it, which I don’t think is valid.
When there is 2.5x in the pot and you make it 2x, your steal only has to work 44% of the time to be profitable.
When you make it 4x, your steal now has t o work 62% of the time (or 55% if you 3x)
The first time you do it, you may get away with it because of the surprise factor. But as soon as you do it a few times, or you show down less than a premium, your opponents will adjust and you will be burning that extra 1/2bb every time you do it
If you have any further reasoning u would be interested to hear it
October 21, 2012
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I would caution against two things.
1. A lot of things depend heavily on table conditions. There are some tables where raising more than min does increase FE. Absolutely nothing wrong with making it 3x if it works at that table. I say try it and if it doesnt work, try something else. What's the harm? Losing a few extra bbs the one or two times it doesnt work before you re-adjust? I think it is more harmful to not try something different when what you are doing is not working for you.
If they are folding to your 2x more than 44% of the time, then you dont need to try anything different. If they aren't, then it's foolish to continue min raise folding. Maybe they will fold to your 3x more than 55% of the time. Maybe instead of fighting back by raising a little more, you can 4bet lighter or just pick on players behind you. Just do something different so you dont get owned or wait around for monsters (also known as being card dead). I only mention this strategy because I saw it worked on me. I was willing to 3bet light to 5bb over their 2bb raise, but not to 10bb over their 4bb raise.
2. Assuming that people will adjust. We make money because people dont adjust as a rule. Just be smart enough to know which ones are adjusting and revert back to the standard on them until you can figure out something better.
October 6, 2010
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I agree with your sentiments, I just don’t agree that opening larger is an appropriate adjustment for us to be making. Plenty of other ones we can make. Will elaborate when I am not on my phone
October 21, 2012
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Honestly, I think Sidarloking got what he was looking for and at this point the advice I gave here should probably go in my Aha! Moments thread as his question was answered a long time ago. I'll probably just post any new thoughts I have there.
The bottom line here for me is at least 70% of the time, “bad” is subjective if you are not actually at the table. I distinctly remember people getting berated for minraising a few years ago when 3xing was “good”. If today's “good” plays are not working at my table, I want to try something different. I will put the things I have tried and liked in my Aha! thread. If they dont work for me down the line, I'll just try something different and keep improving.
November 30, 2012
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Haha, so funny! The final table of the sunday million is how you incorporate that strategy. One person sitting with ALL the chips (60% or so) basicly OWNING a 9 man table single handedely by opening BIG according to hand strenght (It looks like) essentially putting everyone to the dicession, are my nines worth 9th vs possibly 3rd or second for a $150 000 difference?
This is a prime example of bigstack dominating. They know they have a better hand, but they also know he is calling with a wide range. He even shows his aces with his ace size opens. He is also running like a god. But still, it's so great. Opening min by him would BE so bad, giving them the chance to see a flop and get it in more comfortable with less or more luck involved is -EV for him. So, yeah, when you are a huge chiplead playing in events where people REALLY care about the payouts, then this is ****ing great. Not doing it in the way of your example, but so sickening. They know they are ahead of him with AJ, but they arent dominating him for sure, and he is calling with QT KT K5 etc (really should be watching the final 2 tables+, thats when he gets a stack and start this, so ****ing epic to watch).
This is definitly great, this is a donk with no winnings doing by the way. HAHA, so epic!*
According to OPR.
Check out my "going pro" poker journal, updated weekly with wins, losses and my progress as a player:
June 12, 2012
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Slightly off topic but playing last night sitting in the chat box watching Nqon play and Psych talking relise how much of a different level they are on to me. Some of the spots i wouldn't have even given them a second thought. I definantly seem happy to let myself get short stacked which is just plain awful.
Back to the videos i go
Read Casey's killer instinct artcle…. agree with benny, **** the lobby we play to WIN!
As far as aggro CL to left, its simple…
We have to adjust accordingly to position, stack sizes, game flow…….
I would just tighten up and pick spots accordingly. Remember changing gears is so crucial in mtts, we dont always have to be playing aggro in order to win mtts. In fact, there are many times where we must nit up in order to win outright. All about adjusting to the table.
GL
Azn
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