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October 6, 2010
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Schizoid said:
if anyone of you is going to play on cake network, be wary about their slow cash outs. i've been waiting for a low 4 figure sum about a month already and its still under pending. im with moneybookers.
Hagbard-
You missed the point. The most poignant statement in the “debate” was made by Frank Catania. He said there is a portion of the UIGEA that prohibits the feds from seizing players' $$$$$$$$. That is ultimately important for us. I would gather that one of the first moves the sites in question will make in court will be to ensure that they are able to transfer/release/payout $$$$$ to players. Additionally Catania said the feds have grossly overstepped their bounds.
(Also,in response to your telling me to, “read the indictment”: never assume someone hasn't performed an act or conducted the research necessary to be as informed as possible on a given subject or topic, unless they make some statements that allow you to infer that they are uninformed; all I wrote was, “Watch this y'all!” And in my second statement I gathered then, as I do now, that my mistake was assuming people would actually listen to a man – Frank Catania – who has been deeply involved with the legal side of the gaming issue.)
bennymacca said:
Schizoid said:
if anyone of you is going to play on cake network, be wary about their slow cash outs. i've been waiting for a low 4 figure sum about a month already and its still under pending. im with moneybookers.
i have a pending $500 cashout with them too, been like that for a week. previous cashouts have taken up to 2 weeks too.site is super soft though, pity there isn't much in the way of tournament traffic.
extremely soft for flhuhu. even the regs are so-so
October 6, 2010
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i have played a bunch of their heads up 20NL and 50NL as well and both are really soft, especailly 20NL
yea but whats the point if it takes forever to cash out. i'm taking it out ( hopefully its sucessful ) and gonna give MTTs a shot. lucky im not in the states. hope the fields will be softer when i start. 🙂 Do let me know when your withdrawal gets approved. 🙂
McBain74 said:
G0liath said:
I'm a uk player and I had problems updating files once this all kicked off. I just re installed the client and it was fine. Works fine for me now not sure why yours wouldn't be. I think an email to support may be in order
Did you try this: …..tilt.co.uk
mesoanarchy said:
Hagbard-
You missed the point. The most poignant statement in the “debate” was made by Frank Catania. He said there is a portion of the UIGEA that prohibits the feds from seizing players' $$$$$$$$. That is ultimately important for us. I would gather that one of the first moves the sites in question will make in court will be to ensure that they are able to transfer/release/payout $$$$$ to players. Additionally Catania said the feds have grossly overstepped their bounds.
(Also,in response to your telling me to, “read the indictment”: never assume someone hasn't performed an act or conducted the research necessary to be as informed as possible on a given subject or topic, unless they make some statements that allow you to infer that they are uninformed; all I wrote was, “Watch this y'all!” And in my second statement I gathered then, as I do now, that my mistake was assuming people would actually listen to a man – Frank Catania – who has been deeply involved with the legal side of the gaming issue.)
But the feds have not overstepped their bounds as far as any of us know. The charges in the indictment are very serious and we have no reason to believe that the feds are seizing player balances.
And I didn't mean to insinuate that you are uninformed, but rather was trying to point out the language of the indictment, which seems to specify that they are going after company profits. That plus Stars saying they keep player balances in accounts separate from company finances are certainly good signs for us. Poor wording on my part.
For those interested in playing on the Cake Network, I have a friend who works with Broadway Tables who can get 40% rakeback accounts. He says they are good to go and getting ~100 new players a day.
PM me if interested and I'll point you in his direction.
Any ideas when we might be looking at our money back…couple of weeks… month or 2…. 6 months plus? and when we will be looking at online poker being regulated in the u.s. ? I have a lease for an apt thru the end of october I'm thinking of moving to canada at that time if both of the above doesn't take place. Which leads me to 2 other questions how's the bud in the st catharines area and how expensive are apts there ?
June 11, 2010
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nocturnal1 said:
Any ideas when we might be looking at our money back…couple of weeks… month or 2…. 6 months plus? and when we will be looking at online poker being regulated in the u.s. ? I have a lease for an apt thru the end of october I'm thinking of moving to canada at that time if both of the above doesn't take place. Which leads me to 2 other questions how's the bud in the st catharines area and how expensive are apts there ?
At this point I would expect that you won't see money move until this settles out. Payment processors are going to be highly wary about moving anything until the landscape becomes clear or at least I would expect that would be the case. As far as regulation in the US given the current political landscape and climate I wouldn't expect it to get taken up by Congress at all. The GOP has been very clear that they as a party are against Internet Gaming in any form, so I wouldn't expect that you are going to see a regulated industry appear. Best thing to hope for is that the case goes to court and the sites successfully beat the DOJ case for the money movement, but even then the waters will be highly murky as to how to approach this situation unregulated and unenforced. The 2+2 Legislation forum has some really good discussion on the subject and the moderators are some very well informed folks if you want to read more on it, but yeah don't get too excited that it is changing.
The link above is a newspaper that covers Capitol Hill and has some quotes from Rep. Bachus who is the Chair of the House Finance committee where the bill would have to come from and he is pretty clear that it isn't something that will come up in this Congress.
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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That was the most ridiculous set of quotes I have ever seen. I'm still putting my money behind big money, and thinking regulation comes through in the next year as B&M flex their muscle.
June 11, 2010
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RonFezBuddy said:
That was the most ridiculous set of quotes I have ever seen. I'm still putting my money behind big money, and thinking regulation comes through in the next year as B&M flex their muscle.
I follow US Federal Politics pretty closely as well as pro gaming legistlation (for obvious reasons 🙂 ) pretty closely so I'll give you my full on opinion for what I think is going to happen.
The first thing to note about this discussion is that within the poker community there is a call for regulation of online poker, within the US political sphere the conversation is always around legislation and regulation of Internet Gaming. There is a small difference in wording, but there is a huge implication difference there. We'll talk more abou that a little later, just keep it in mind for now.
There really are three options going forward for regulation, Federal, State and Federal+State. There has been a lot of buzz from the State level recently, but only Nevada and NJ have made any headway. From the State level everytime someone gets close to passing legislation on the subject the DOJ sends a cease and desist letter threatening legal action agasint the States. Once that hits the bills usually die .Looking into those two bills deeper though there are a bunch of problems. The Nevada bill has a couple of problems, the first is that the sponsors of the bill have recently fallen under scrutiney about who is backing the bill (namely Pokerstars funding). Foreign funding influencing the process is a big deal and is largely responsible for the bill failing and going for a rewrite which resulted in the legislation that made the news. The biggest element in the Nevada legislation is nothing happens until the regulation is enacted at the Federal level, so in essence it is a bill that gives a framework for how Nevada would manage regulation, but doesn't have any tangible outcome at the moment. The other bill of interest is the one in NJ which was vetoed in December and is coming back around for a vote again. This bill and Gov. Christie have shown no fear of the DOJ which is a positive sign, but the important part to remember here is this bill is intended to legalize online gaming for NJ residents only and will be housed in Atlantic City by the casinos there (I assume this is principly why they aren't afraid as this is a legit gaming zone) and is really intended to facilitate sports betting in NJ, assuming that NJ wins its suit against the US Government and is allowed to engage in that activity.
From the Federal level things really don't look promising for a number of reasons. Remember the semantic note I started with? At the Federal level all of the discussions are around Internet Gambling, not Online Poker. This is a huge distinction. As far as the political parties go, gaming, and more specifically anti-gaming, is something that the both agree on at he Congressional level. With a Presidentail Election in 2012 the upcoming legislative agenda for this year focuses on the primary areas they feel will benefit them in the upcoming elections. Expect to see the Congressional session dominated by the debates on reduction of the US Debt (especially after the S&P reduction of the US future outlook from Stable to Negative jeapordizing the US “AAA” credit rating), the GOP targetting Health Care legislation, Jobs Creation, Wall Street Reform and the US Military involvement overseas. Both the Democrats and Republicans are going to go for the issues that give them the most bang for the buck and unfortunetly at a national level, gaming is a poison pill. If you take a poll in Congress there are really only a very small number of politicians who even openly speak about pro-gaming legislation (Rep. Frank, Rep Campbell and Sen Menendez are the only ones I have seen really talking about it). Many people will point to Sen Reid's discussion of a bill in December, but there are a couple of very key things to note about that. First, there was no bill. There was nothing in the Congressional record on it. The Senate cannot propose legislation, it has to come from the House of Representatives and any gaming legislation first comes from the House Finance Committee. The second step is that it must make it onto the legislative agenda for a vote on the House floor. At the time Speaker Pelosi was very specific that no gaming legislation would appear on the agenda. Speaker Bohenar hasn't said anything on the topic that I am aware of, but I have no reason to think his opinion is different. In an election year he is going to try to shape the legislative agenda to make the GOP look as good as possible, gaming isn't going to get there. The Midwest and a good chunk of the South in general (not individually and there are certainly pro-gaming groups everywhere) are staunchly against it from a social negative perspective, so anyone trying to shape a national agenda isn't going to aggravate 30% of the country.
So overall I am hopeful that the court case will spawn some discussion and debate, but I am reasonable sure (and a bit depressed about it) that there is going to be little or no action from the Federal level taken on this issue. There is no actual lobbying force for the players either which is going to complicate things. The PPA is an industry focused organization, which isn't making very much headway as they don't seem to have any real clear objectives or proposals (just “legalize poker”) which is going to cause a lot of problems. If there isn't a clear proposal then debate becomes very amorphous and philosophical and doesn't every really solve anything. Well I've spewed on long enough. Just my thoughts on the subject. I remain eternally hopeful, but realistic at the same time.
–LPG
First step forward, hope all get their money back.
What I don't get is how the other sites like True Poker, Merge, Cake and Bodog get around the issue of funding accounts of American players. How do they manage to do it without 'illegal' banking implications? Is there any danger they might be indicted as well?
Apparently when you try to fund states you get your collective hand smacked by the DOJ.
just saw this possibly a good thing for us to witdraw our funds ( same article as SWET put up)
June 11, 2010
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swet1 said:
First step forward, hope all get their money back.
What I don't get is how the other sites like True Poker, Merge, Cake and Bodog get around the issue of funding accounts of American players. How do they manage to do it without 'illegal' banking implications? Is there any danger they might be indicted as well?
Getting money back is huge and great so I am glad taht I was wrong about that. As far as your other questions here, I would say in my opinion it is relatively naive to think that the DOJ is unaware of these sites or that they are going to pick up traffic. If it is illegal for one it is illegal for all in this case. I would expect that since it took some time for the DOJ to build the case against the “Big 3” that it would take the a while to build the case for Cake, Merge, Bodog etc…but to think that it won't or couldn't happen is pretty short sighted. These guys are pretty smart and are watching the community respond to give them paths and indicators about where is most beneficial to look next, it is pretty much the fundamental philosophy for deconstructing criminal enterprises so no reason to think it isn't in play here.
June 22, 2010
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Full Tilt press release, still not yet getting funds even though DOJ cleared path.
"Your either in Sheen's Korner or your with the trolls."
I mean, this process could still take a long time. It's just very reassuring to know that it will happen.
June 22, 2010
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Hagbard Celine said:
I mean, this process could still take a long time. It's just very reassuring to know that it will happen.
It is a good sign, just wished FT would have kept it simple with “we are moving forward”, I did not like their other comments-just going to upset people.
"Your either in Sheen's Korner or your with the trolls."
I know alot has come out regarding Stars and Tilt in the past few hours and info about the Cereus sites has been limited. Just wanted to give people in my situation (US player with funds primarily tied up at UB) a heads up and also gauge what their experience has been. I e-mailed UB support earlier today asking why they were still allowing real money play at UB for American players and was met with the response you can find once you open the client (suspended real money transactions due to the actions of the DOJ). Great thanks for answering my question. I e-mailed them again posing the same question while also asking if they were considering making an agreement with the DOJ like Stars and Tilt had. I got the same automated response yet again. Finally, after I sent a third e-mail asking for a response from an actual human being they sent the following message;
Dear Player, We genuinely appreciate your patience during these difficult and extraordinary times. Our company has retained U.S. legal counsel to review these matters and we will provide more detailed feedback within the next few days. Thank you
Has anyone had any relevant conversation with anyone from UB? Any feedback would be appreciated.
3_Bullits
Just thought Id post this. I think people are not focusing on the fact that PS and Full Tilt were doing some underground things. For example, us players could not deposit on ps/ft with CC…yet on sites like Cake,carbon ext.. you can. I deposited w/ my bank debit card and it went through fine. What does this tell us?…well I would say that these sites are doing something different then FT, PS, AP/UB. These sites WERE money laundering…and if other sites were doing same thing im PRETTY SURE they would cease and decist. I think FT, PS, AP/UB were trying to pull fast ones and got caught up. Just my .02
Pce
Phoenix
By now, you have heard about the events which transpired on what is being dubbed “Poker Black Friday” of the 15th of last week. The owners of PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker, and Absolute Poker/Ultimate Bet, names of which as competitors you don’t mention until a time like this, have been indicted on charges of bank fraud, money laundering, and crimes against the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA). In light of their current legal affairs, they have stopped serving to the American market. The repercussions are being handed down to the severest extent of the law, with the executives facing up to 35 years in prison and damage claims of over $3 billion.
With all the recent events hitting the industry like a hurricane of heresay, it’s easy to panic and misconstrue the headlines as a concerned internet poker player no matter where your bankroll lies. Let’s set the record straight: These events weren’t caused by some sort of impending poker prohibition, like Eliot Ness himself is coming after your small blind. They were caused by shady, shiesty people getting their comeuppances, the big league players with above-the-law attitudes that ultimately came back to bite them on the ass.
From the FBI’s official statement:
“Because U.S. banks and credit card issuers were largely unwilling to process their payments, the Poker Companies allegedly used fraudulent methods to circumvent federal law and
trick these institutions into processing payments on their behalf. For example, defendants ISAI SCHEINBERG and PAUL TATE of PokerStars, RAYMOND BITAR and NELSON BURTNICK of Full Tilt Poker, and SCOTT TOM and BRENT BECKLEY of Absolute Poker, arranged for the money received from U.S. gamblers to be disguised as payments to hundreds of non-existent online merchants purporting to sell merchandise such as jewelry and golf balls. Of the billions of dollars in payment transactions that the Poker Companies tricked U.S. banks into processing, approximately one-third or more of the funds went directly to the Poker Companies as revenue through the “rake” charged to players on almost every poker hand played
online.
The payment processors lied to banks about the nature of the financial transactions they were processing, and covered up those lies, by, among other things, creating phony corporations and websites to disguise payments to the Poker Companies. For example, a PokerStars document from May 2009 acknowledged that they received money from U.S. gamblers through company names that ‘strongly imply the transaction has nothing to do with PokerStars,’ and that PokerStars used whatever company names ‘the processor can get approved by the bank.’
The Indictment and Civil Complaint seek at least $3 billion in civil money laundering penalties and forfeiture from the Poker Companies and the defendants.”
When broken down, the $3 billion is divied up as follows:
PokerStars – $1.5 billion
Full Tilt Poker – $1 billion
Cereus Network (Absolute Poker/Ultimate Bet) – $500 million
Since last Friday, the FBI has frozen 75 bank accounts and five internet domains as they continue to neuter the livelihood of the accused. This isn’t a case of people being made an example of; This is a case of people getting what was coming to them. In the fallout of their indictments, live tournament circuits hosted by both PokerStars (the NAPT) and Full Tilt (the recently announced Onyx Cup, with $100k-$300k events) have been cancelled, as well as any sponsored poker broadcasts on ESPN. It is also being speculated that Poker After Dark and High Stakes Poker will be cancelled mid-season, as they are sponsored by both Full Tilt and Stars, respectively.
The Poker Players Alliance (PPA) has used this as an opportunity to speak out in defense of their 1.2 million distressed members, like some egregious error has been committed and their player’s rights have come into question. Their ranting and raving is nothing different than the showing Triumph of Will to Nazi troops. At the end of the day, two of the PPA’s more prevalent and domineering members, Chris Ferguson and Howard Lederer, stand to gain the most from inciting misconceptions and confusion, as they are loyal shareholders and spokespersons of Full Tilt. In an attempt to scare all poker enthusiasts, they hope to draw down turnouts for all other sites by pointing the blame past greedy corporate sheisters and affixing the outrage on government legislation.
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