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August 20, 2015
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Live tournament, $40 buy in, down to final four remaining. Myself and LAG to my right have the largest stacks at close to 40BB each. He has a little more. BB is shortest at around 20BB, UTG around 25 BB.
LAG has been limping almost every hand and raising a lot, but not all, buttons.
UTG folds, button raises 3x, I have TT in SB and not entirely sure whether raising or flatting will net me more chips. I decide to flat, see what the flop brings. BB folds. Fop is Tc8c5h… I have top set but there is a flush and coordinated board out there. I check, villain bets half pot and I am unsure here what to do. Flat and then what happens with turn bringing any club or 4, 7, 9, J, Q?
After maybe 20 seconds I am thinking that I don’t want to be in a difficult position on the turn with a scare card and I shove.
What are you guys doing here?
July 21, 2015
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Wow, shove 40bb in the flop in a 2bet pot seems way to big for me. There should have been around 8bb in the flop, he bets 4bb… a 37bb shove is a huge overbet. You could make it 13bb, creating a 34bb pot in turn where you can easily push your remaining 24bb.
Anyways, I think I prefer a 3bet preflop, as you are way ahead of his range (even more if he’s opening every single button), and it’s hard to extract value when don’t have position and iniciative unless it’s a kind of cooler situation where it doesn’t really matter.
As played, I think I prefer to raise the flop as you depend on the villain to keep barreling to take the x/c x/r line (depending how aggresive he is postflop). Not sure about getting it in in 2 o 3 streets, my sizing would depend on that. Raise to 13bb to shove 24bb on turn, or maybe raise to 9bb, bet 13bb turn (26bb pot) and 15bb in river.
That’s only my opinion ofc 🙂
August 20, 2015
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Thanks – yes this shove was crazy big and I hated the spot. I considered raising but the same ‘what if those million scare cards come, and there are two guys who will more than likely bust before me’ thoughts got me to play scared. I felt like a fool during this hand and had no idea what I would if the turn is not a blank of some kind. This really stood out as a ‘I have no idea what to do given ICM considerations, potential to be outdrawn, and how to play back against continued aggression on scary turns’.
No doubt I lost a LOT of value but with almost half the deck being a scare card I found myself in an entirely new situation given this was down to the final four players.
In earlier stages I think I am flatting flop, evaluating turn and possibly calling a turn barrel to evaluate river – dunno my sizing on a check raise on flop. It is a horribly passive line – top set is 100x easier to play on a dry board…
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Just because there are some turn cards you’d prefer not to see doesn’t mean that you absolutely must end the hand on the flop at all costs. Your hand is strong enough to continue on any turn, even though there is a chance you’ll be beat, so you don’t have to sweat the possibility of getting outdrawn THAT hard. Not to mention that if V’s range is half as wide as you say he won’t have any kind of draw very often anyway:
I agree that 3-betting is best against a very wide range. As played, I’d check-call flop and plan to check-shove most turns. You could consider donk-calling the really scare ones in order to prevent V from taking a free card. Under no circumstances should you fold before the river, and usually you shoudl be all in before the river.
August 20, 2015
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I really wish I could play this one over. Reading that link now – couldn’t be more on point, right down to the very first example. Thanks!
This line is excellent:
Learn to think clearly about an opponent’s entire range rather than just the worst case scenarios and you’ll find yourself winning bigger pots with your best hands.
September 14, 2014
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Foucault
if we are going to c/c with our monsters (strong hands) then what about or flush draws like JQcc KQcc KJcc AJcc AQcc AKcc? would you play those the same way? I’d assume so , c/c flop and c/shove turn?
The thing is would it not be better if we c/r flop with our monsters and draws and shove turn? I mean why is it you prefer the line you choose against this particular opponent? is it because you know V has a very wide range and that your allowing v to put 2 bets in rather then just the 1 bet?
another thing is with these effective stacks i doubt check shoving flop would be like negative ev here, it’s just that you’d lose money with your value hands since v is very likely betting a very wide range otf. check shoving your draws has more merit, though in order to stay balanced you’re taking the c/c line otf and check/shove line on the turn with both your value and bluff range, yeah? basically if it was not for balance you’d check shove flop here with both your value hands and your bluff range, that’s what i am getting at.
if balancing our range was not important in this spot would you consider check shoving with your bluff range? so basically lets play exploitabley against V?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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I think ck/jamming flop with lower sets and big draws is probably best. I don’t like doing it with TT because it blocks so much of V’s calling range, and I think Hero will want to have some hands that are strong on blank turns in his c/c range. I don’t think there’s room for Hero to c/r less than all in. The all in bet is a bit large – about 2x pot – but on this board texture, I don’t know what a check-raise-fold range would or could look like.
August 20, 2015
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And are you always 3betting TT from SB in this kind of scenario?
September 14, 2014
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pretty much always , cant think of a time when to flat here really. If the blinds are small like in the early stages you could opt for a flat but when the blinds are bigger with antes in play i’d go for a 3-bet for the most part. V will likely to call your 3-bet with a wider range since they have position as well.
September 14, 2014
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thanks Focault.
If we were going to have a c/r fold range here i guess it would be with hands that are not willing to play a 80bb+ pot , so maybe with a hand like KQs/KJs (no clubs) though this is not a flop that we would want to c/f too often right. how wide should our bluffing range be this vs opponent , 2over cards seems okay ish? a K/Q/J could give us the best hand but may also improve v range of hands too so we may have reverse implied odds here.
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