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Folding the Top of my Range?
DuckinDaDeck
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May 22, 2018 - 7:24 am
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$109 SCOOP. Against most players at my normal stakes this seems like an easy bet-fold on the river. However, against an aggressive player who can read hands, I think I probably need to pay off.

I would probably bet AA on this flop, lots of BB defend range can call, but don’t have 33 and probably don’t open 55 UTG+1. Including A7s, I have 5 combos better than my hand that take this line. Villain probably doesn’t reach the river with many naked 7s, so he is basically only repping boats and 64s/42s, and there are a ton of missed draws.

 

PokerStars – 300/600 Ante 75 NL – Holdem – 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MyPokerNuts (MP+2): 194.71 BB
Lucky_Reka (CO): 31.26 BB
joice_verle (BTN): 74.54 BB
BaNdErA713 (SB): 115.69 BB
Pashko89 (BB): 86.45 BB
74forever (UTG): 48.47 BB
EatMyFish (UTG+1): 79.33 BB
Riados015 (MP): 49.79 BB
alexrod99 (MP+1): 79.75 BB

9 players post ante of 0.13 BB, BaNdErA713 posts SB 0.5 BB, Pashko89 posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.62 BB) EatMyFish has Kheart Aspade

fold, EatMyFish raises to 2.4 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Pashko89 calls 1.4 BB

Flop: (6.42 BB, 2 players) Adiamond 7spade 5diamond
Pashko89 checks, EatMyFish bets 2.12 BB, Pashko89 calls 2.12 BB

Turn: (10.66 BB, 2 players) 3spade
Pashko89 checks, EatMyFish bets 7.04 BB, Pashko89 calls 7.04 BB

River: (24.74 BB, 2 players) 7heart
Pashko89 checks, EatMyFish bets 12.86 BB, Pashko89 raises to 38.1 BB, hero folds

Foucault

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May 23, 2018 - 8:05 am
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Honestly if you think he can k/r river with a polarized range you may be better off checking. The thing is once he raises it doesn’t really matter that you have AK (except I guess that you unblock diamonds). But the mere fact that this is top of your range doesn’t necessarily make it better for bluff-catching.

FWIW, PokerSnowie prefers value betting (EV gain of ~2bb). And then it’s indifferent when raised (as should be the case at equilibrium), mostly folding. But of course, PS doesn’t know it’s playing a tournament.

The main lesson from Pio is that you want to put more money in sooner. This is a very favorable flop and turn for your hand/range. It prefers a larger 3-bet size with most of your betting range, including usually with AK. And it does a lot more 150% pot than 70% pot on the turn, including with your hand.

Also on the river it thinks V should mostly shove if he’s going to raise. So, not really good info on how you should respond to a small raise with this hand, because it’s such a tiny part of the game tree for Pio. Most likely it would be a mix, though, because this is the kind of hand with which you should be indifferent at equilibrium.

So things to think about:

1. Bet more on flop and turn.

2. Do you actually want to value bet the river? Once you factor in the risk of a raise, it gets pretty thin/high variance for a big chunk of your stack.

3. The question for calling isn’t whether Villain *could* bluff or where your hand sits relative to your range, it’s whether Villain will bluff *too much*. That’s the only thing that would make calling downright appealing.

theginger45

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May 23, 2018 - 10:01 pm
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The thing I like the least here is your river bet size. I can understand firing the third barrel here, but half pot just doesn’t make a lot of sense in a situation where your three-barrel range is polarized enough that there’s some ambiguity as to whether you can even get called by that many worse hands when betting AK (which there is – if you think villain is decent then you shouldn’t be expecting them to pay off a random Ax that often on this river).

If the river was a random blank – like a Tc or something – then I could understand going relatively small, since that’s a card where you can have some thinner three-barrels for value, and there’s less likelihood of villain having a check-raising range. However, this card does two things:

1. It means you now lose in the event that villain does have 7dXd, 7x6x, 7x4x, or a rivered boat, meaning you can’t value-bet as thinly (another reason AK is not a guaranteed value bet).

2. It puts some hands in villain’s check-raising for value range, which theoretically puts some hands in their check-raise bluffing range, which further incentivizes you to avoid thin value-betting unless you’re confident they’re actually check-raise bluffing too much.

The harder it gets for you to three-barrel thinner for value on any given runout, the bigger your third barrel should be, because you’re getting closer to the point where all your value-bets always win when called (because your value-betting threshold gets higher) and all your bluffs lose when called (because they’re bluffs anyway) – as your range polarizes, you have fewer and fewer hands that sometimes win and sometimes lose, and you have fewer hands that play ambiguously versus a raise.

A half-pot third barrel here suggests you’re trying to barrel not only AK, but some hands worse than that for value – if you’re unclear about villain’s check-raising tendencies, this is going to be problematic. I would recommend sizing up a little to begin with – in the region of 16-18bb even if you’re going to keep betting AK – but in reality I think a preferable strategy here is to simply polarize your third-barrel range so that nothing in it plays ambiguously versus a raise, and size up to something like 25-30bb with that range.

Of course, if villain is check-raise bluffing this spot too much, then you should just three-barrel every hand that beats their bluffs and never fold the river, but it’s unlikely that’s the case. River spots where villains have too many check-raise bluffs are few and far between.

DuckinDaDeck
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June 4, 2018 - 11:16 am
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Just posting to thank you guys for the awesome responses. I’ve come back to this thread at least 5 times and each time I come away feeling like I’ve picked up something new to work on. I have a laundry list of questions but its hard to prioritize them, and I probably can answer enough of them through independent study that I’ll wait until I have some more intelligent questions. Thanks again!

joelshitshow
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June 9, 2018 - 12:40 pm
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This also learned me a lot. Thanks for the original post, as well as for the replies from the pros.

I’ve seen a lot of talk over the years about “2 vs. 3 streets of value.” I haven’t seen enough talk about the importance of it in the context of how polarized your range is and bet sizing as a result. Thinking about how often V has to check-raise bluff for it to be likely in this hand is something I’m going to work on. Really I guess it’s acknowledging how infrequent such moves really are, rather than wondering literally whether this is endemic of their play and spending a lot of energy on that specifically.

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