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December 30, 2015
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No Limit Holdem Tournament PokerStars
9 Players
$2.00+$0.20
Blinds 250/500 9
UTG fbfelix 23,225
UTG+1 eviihasz 17,946
MP1 RegulatorG 23,466
MP2 LittleAgrro 13,517
MP3 flaoli 7,480
CO Hero 11,391
D birdman647 10,153
SB Saviola TJF 17,795
BB wednex 7,053
9 1,290 Hero is CO A Q
fbfelix raises to 1,500, 4 folds, Hero folds, 3 folds
fbfelix wins 2,790 (net +1,230)
UTG isn’t all that tight (35/14 c-bet 57%) but I’ve never seen a 3x. Is my fold too tight?
[Edit: I’m sure that c-bet percent is wrong but not sure if I meant 7% or 17%…probably doesn’t matter much here anyway]
June 2, 2013
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For what I have seen, when passive guys make 3x is a pocket pair, or AK, sometimes a monster, but not that much, I guess is probably a flip.
I think you can call, even that putting you with less than 20bbs, BB have a shove stack, if BB shove you can call if UTG fold, or fold if UTG calls or shove on you.
In case you go to the flop just by calling, a 7% or 17% cbet from V is very small, you have to reevaluate on the flop the strengh of your hand. 57% is better, cbet with draws and made hands.
Don´t like the shove soo much pre flop versus utg.
December 30, 2015
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First, oops! I wish I could edit my edit there. It reads “c-bet” but was I thinking “3-bet” when I edited….no way the guy is 3-betting 58%. The original post is probably right then and he has a low-ish C-bet %.
almofadinhas said
…I think you can call, even that putting you with less than 20bbs, BB have a shove stack, if BB shove you can call if UTG fold, or fold if UTG calls or shove on you….
Interesting point. Here is my thinking on why I folded pre….
I’m working on tightening some aspects of my game right now though and I don’t know if I want to call off over 10% of my stack knowing that an A or Q on the flop still doesn’t offer much security. Can I really fold a Q-high or A-high flop to 1 c-bet? On the flop my SPR is going to be ~2:1. Lets say there is an A- or Q-high flop and he leads for half pot. If I call and the turn is a blank, and V fires again, I’ve got less than a pot-sized bet if I jam (assuming V doesn’t just jam the turn after we flat him twice depending on if he thinks our action looks weak or strong, which in reality is a bit of both). If V checks the turn, depending on board texture, I might be correct to just jam.
…so I’m probably all-in with an un-sure top-pair hand right? If I’m not willing to get it in with top-pair, why did I call pre-flop? What am I hoping for? …and how can I call preflop if I’m not willing to call post-flop with TP, 4-card straght draw, open-ended, etc?
I think if my hand were suited I might be more willing to speculate because it would give me an extra bit of possible equity against AK, QQ+. Getting an A- or Q-high flop with 2 spades, or even a back-door spade draw with the 2nd coming on the turn, would both be pretty great to continue with. Even so, I am more likely to face the same situation as described above, so I’m not really sure what to do.
I never considered this, but….would it be better to 3-bet/fold in this spot rather than flat? fold > 3-bet > flat? I’d look super committed betting 1/3 of my stack so while more risky immediately, perhaps it is more likely to win the pot PF or lose less overall? With his VPIP/PFR maybe this would be a good spot, except for the 3x open… Then again, he has a lot of chips so he might just shove and risk half his stack hoping for a flip with JJ, and then I fold where I would have won with top-pair post-flop. Or he may flat and I’m back where I started except now I have to shove/fold the flop …I’m still new to advanced 3-bet strategy so this is a big exploratory”?”.
November 18, 2014
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I’m working on tightening some aspects of my game right now though and I don’t know if I want to call off over 10% of my stack knowing that an A or Q on the flop still doesn’t offer much security. Can I really fold a Q-high or A-high flop to 1 c-bet?
…so I’m probably all-in with an un-sure top-pair hand right? If I’m not willing to get it in with top-pair, why did I call pre-flop? What am I hoping for? …and how can I call preflop if I’m not willing to call post-flop with TP, 4-card straght draw, open-ended, etc?
I think that reasoning is wrong. With AQ if you hit the A or the Q there’s just a really really small fraction of his range that is going to be ahead of you, specifically just QQ,KK (only if you hit the Q), AK (only if you hit the A) and AA, if he’s opening to 3bb a really tight 6% range, that will still constitutes 1/3 of that range, that is, every time you hit you’re going to be ahead more than 66% of the time.
With an SPR of 2.1 if you hit you want to get the chip in the middle as soon as possible as you are going to wing most of the time.
So basically, you should be willing to go all-in with TP every time in this spot (at least I think you should). Given a 17% Cbet I would definitively consider calling and I’d probably even call a squeeze if he folds.
April 5, 2016
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I got a refund on my HUD because of spots like this. I can play twice as many tables with a HUD bur all I see is stats. I don’t know of the 34% VPIP how many of those hands were UTG, what he’s showed down UTG, when he’s 3xing, etc. I just know that he’s playing 34% of hands.
Not knowing much about his UTG 3x range I probably just fold. If it’s suited I can flat and hope to flop a flush, straight, 2 pair, or trip queens. Because of the implied odds I think it’s a profitable call (if he’s 3xing UTG I’m assuming he has a huge hand and will definitely be firing a c-bet on flop and usually not folding). But I would be very cautious NOT to go crazy on a Q high or A high flop unless i also pick up my flush draw. Calling one street is fine, but you have to be willing to let it go when faced with multiple barrels.
I think AQo I just fold though with the information provided. I know suitedness doesnt change much (I think 2%?) But it’s enough for me to try to hit and stack him.
Maybe you could 3bet with the intention to fold to a 4bet?
I’m not a pro or anything, just a slightly profiting reg, so remember that this is just my opinion and my opinion is very often wrong lol
November 18, 2014
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Wintastical said
I got a refund on my HUD because of spots like this. I can play twice as many tables with a HUD bur all I see is stats. I don’t know of the 34% VPIP how many of those hands were UTG, what he’s showed down UTG, when he’s 3xing, etc. I just know that he’s playing 34% of hands.
That’s probably because you didn’t know how to use the HUD properly (no offense) as the HUD can be configured to show you those values by position so that you know that data.
Mine shows several useful stuff like
- Cbet and Fold to Cbet
- OR for EP, MP, CO, BTN and SB,
- Open Shove for the same positions
- Other useful stuff like the limp-fold percentage, his ROL percentage, his fold to river bet
- Popup will give me the same values by number of blinds (when he’s short, when he’s deep, when he has a medium stack etc)
June 2, 2013
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MovieFX said
I never considered this, but….would it be better to 3-bet/fold in this spot rather than flat? fold > 3-bet > flat?
3bet fold is a horrible idea with 23bb, maybe good with ~40bb but will be better to call and use position then.
flatting that 3x I don´t like much too, if I put V on really tight range i fold, if he is not that tight I shove, hoping to get called by worst.
I am not sure if V´s 3bet range help here, fold to 3bet you mean?
December 30, 2015
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almofadinhas said
MovieFX said
I never considered this, but….would it be better to 3-bet/fold in this spot rather than flat? fold > 3-bet > flat?
3bet fold is a horrible idea with 23bb, maybe good with ~40bb but will be better to call and use position then.
flatting that 3x I don´t like much too, if I put V on really tight range i fold, if he is not that tight I shove, hoping to get called by worst.
That is what I figured. I just couldn’t quantify it.
That 3x open was just such a strange change in sizing (no one was 3x-ing. I always notice). In a way I think it polarizes V’s hand. It says, “I don’t want light callers”, but that could mean a steal attempt with something like middle-pairs or suited connectors, not being sure what to do with TT-QQ, or someone who fears playing a multi-way pot with AK, AA, KK, especially OOP. In the end I just didn’t want to invest anything in an odd situation.
I am not sure if V´s 3bet range help here, fold to 3bet you mean?
The number in my original post was c-bet percentage (not 3-bet). My edit was the mistake. It isn’t directly related but if someone has a 100% c-bet then I assume they have a more aggro personality, or at least are less aware of situational strategy in general. It is very thin information here though and probably not worth paying attention to.
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