Home
(0 votes) 
February 15, 2013
Offline
Local deepstack $70 + $10. 15k chips at 25/50 to start. 20 min levels.
Level 2, 50/100, I make it 250 UTG+1 6 handed. 3 calls, BB makes it 900 more. We are 18kish effective.
He views me as the best player in the game and has told me this several times. His range is pretty tight at this point. He is weak-tight. Actually in our stats for last year he never won once (weekly).
Flop Kc 9d 3d
He leads for 1k, I make it 3300, everyone folds, he makes it 8300, with 9k behind. I tank flat and tank fold to his shove on turn when 6h peals.
I think I made a few mistakes.
Pre, standard.
Flop: 3-bet sizing. Let me ask this. I decided to 3-bet larger here. The people in this game tend to ignore proper bet sizing. I could have made it 2285 and both players behind me would flat. It’s not a problem but I want to play against the weak player that I know has a strong hand.
Response to 4-bet: I think this was where I made the biggest mistake. At this point, I have his range at AA, Ad Kd and KK. In my opinion, he never plays AA like this. He is either drawing to a flush at 36% or he has KK and I have 1 out.
I tank fold. He later tells me he did have kings. I feel really good about how I worked through his hand range. I would like feedback on sizing and how you would approach or play different. Thanks.
PS, I think I should possibly fold to 4-bet instead of flatting? Does it really matter though? Would he shove any turn? I have 90bb after the fold, but could have been 140bb…thoughts?
February 27, 2014
Offline
I could easily see AK in his range also and could see him play it the same way.
Also I have met people online who play QQ and JJ the same way also 99 could be in the range.
I could not fold a bottom set if I dont have good reads. Apparently if you have been playing for a year your have good reads on the guy to be able to fold bottom set.
TPE Pro
TPE Management
July 20, 2010
Offline
im not good enough to find a fold here ever, i stick to the Doyle Brunson way of thinking here and im fine with it , which is the the thinking that if i flop a set someones getting paid either me or my opponent! never over thinking this spot or finding a fold. If he has you believing your the best player at the table he may have levelled you into finding a fold.
February 15, 2013
Offline
This is absolutely a read dependent situation. This game is full of older guys that limp a ton, call way too wide in the big blind, ignore bet sizing, 3-bets, etc. I have a very good feel for all the players in this game. As for the hand, I agree 99 is in his range, but I think his sizing would be bigger. QQ and JJ, he never 4-bets. He also never bets 1k on the flop into a 5k pot. 99 being in his range makes it even more of a fold. Honestly, I don't know if I have ever folded a set on a flop, but I've played this tournament over 100 times and I feel like I am reading hands better than I ever had before. Last week, I correctly folded QQ to a 4-bet. He had KK. Obviously my tendencies here are highly exploitable, but these guys are not capable of adjusting. Atleast most of them. This game is all about betting thin for value and slowing way down if you experience resistence. I have shoved a 7BB stack in the sb, when it folds around. BB flashes AJ with 25BB and says be careful. It's just not worth it. Why risk it? I'm shoving because you are folding AJ blind vs. blind for 7BB lol.
February 14, 2013
Offline
ttwist said:
im not good enough to find a fold here ever, i stick to the Doyle Brunson way of thinking here and im fine with it , which is the the thinking that if i flop a set someones getting paid either me or my opponent! never over thinking this spot or finding a fold. If he has you believing your the best player at the table he may have levelled you into finding a fold.
Yeah I tend to agree here; at first I thought it was 3 clubs on the flop, but yeah we lose to exactly KK and thats it. It is a bit dirty that he probably would just call w AK/AA but who knows he might just raise get in those hands
May 15, 2013
Offline
I’m not so sure that pre is standard.
I’m my coaching with Andrew Brokos, he might say this is a fold pre-flop, or maybe a limp. Because if you miss the set, you are almost never going to feel comfortable getting more money in, and if you hit the set, you get into situations like this.
April 16, 2013
Offline
I think the idea behind your play is good but I don't like the flop play. By 3betting on the flop your saying you want to play a big pot and get all the money in which is fine. However when he 4bets I think you really have to call and go with it on non flush turns or make your hero fold then.
I think calling 50bb on the flop and folding to a turn when nothing changes certainly cannot be the best play. As played, I call flop 4bet and fold turn or fold to flop 4bet.
If you just call on the flop, he will likely keep barreling AK, AA on the turn and so we could just keep calling and maybe shove turn or rivers. To be honest he only has one combo of AQdd and AKdd so I think he has KK, AA, AK a lot more often than flush draws. The only reason the flush draw is bad is that you may lose action on turns or rivers against his range if he thinks you hit a flush.
February 15, 2013
Offline
If you are deep and a player raises with a tight range it’s the perfect spot to call. He wants to get more money in the pot later.
April 16, 2013
Offline
What changed your opinion of his range from his flop 4bet to his turn shove?
February 15, 2013
Offline
I guess I was thinking he has to tell the truth on the turn by shoving or checking. This is where I feel I made a mistake. If I was going to fold to a turn shove, I should fold to flop 4-bet. I know it seems crazy, but it is so read specific. Like I said, I have never once folded a set on a flop.
January 20, 2014
Offline
This is an interesting hand. Thank you for posting it. I think you made a good fold, and I can relate to what you're saying about having such a good read on your opponents. I play at a local card room near my parents' house whenever I visit, and it is the same way there. They all play the same way every time, and they never adjust their play. It's amazing how good you can get at reading their hands just by paying attention and logging all of those hands into your subconscious. That being said, here's another perspective on your bet sizing:
Six handed I think a raise UTG1 is good. I might go 2x to keep the pot smaller, I would mix raising 2x-2.2x 70% of the time and have 30% limps in this position 6 handed. Now when you get 3bet, instead of him making it 900, maybe he will be in the 650-775 range? I think you could justify calling this smaller 3bet. As played though, when you get 3bet to 900, I think I would fold here. You still have 3 others to act behind you, and they could raise (maybe you have a read on them that they won't raise?)
When he bets 1k on the flop, I would go for a smaller raise here, like you described, maybe 2200-2500. I understand your reasoning about wanting to get heads up with the BB that has a big hand, but you could get a lot of dead money in the pot if you think flush draws will call. If the flush hits on the turn, and there's a lot of action, let your hand go. But if you are sure that the BB has a big hand, he's probably going to raise your 2200 bet anyways, then you get the dead money in of the flush draws. Now you can drop the hammer and make a big reraise or shove.
I wasn't in your shoes, and I wasn't playing this hand, but thats how I would have played it. Made a smaller raise on preflop, 2-2.2x. Then you could call a smaller 3bet if you were sure no one would raise behind you. Smaller raise on the flop, maybe 2200-2500. If you get a couple callers, and the BB reraises you, then then just push all in and hope he has AA or AdKd.
I believe you're right, he has one of 3 hands: AA, KK or AdKd. I know he told you he had KK. But I can't recall the last time I told the truth about a hand when I was asked in game. I always lie. Always. I never give them anything for free. They have to call to see what I had. Maybe he was doing the same?
All I know, is when people ask me what hand I had, I tell them the hand that I think they folded to, and they quietly nod their head, and subconsciously pat themselves on the back. Really all I'm doing is telling them what they want to hear, and ensuring that I can make the same move against them in the future. I think that's what the game is all about. Telling a make-believe story and getting your opponent to believe it – whether you've got the goods or not. If you have a hand, you want to tell the story that you don't have a hand. If you don't have a hand, you want to tell the story that you do.
Thanks for the post!
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
Offline
I think you're being results-oriented in liking your fold just because he told you he had KK. Firstly, it's pretty likely he was lying, since people lie about hands all the time in live poker.
I also think if you're planning to fold on this huge brick of a turn, your flop call is pretty bad. If you decide that he has flush draw hands in his range on the flop, then wouldn't he continue his aggression with those hands on the turn? Not to mention, we're getting pretty decent odds when he shoves 9k into like 20k or something.
I think I would just get it in on the flop and shrug it off if he does have KK or 99. There are way too many live players who will play KQdd or AA this way for us to think about not getting it in. I think you're putting too much faith in your read on the guy to think about herofolding here.
I think the flop raise is absolutely fine – necessary, even – but if you really think his range is exclusively 99 and KK on the flop, you should fold to the reraise, and if you don't think that, you should never fold that blank turn.
February 15, 2013
Offline
I agree. That’s why I’m saying my mistake was either I fold to 4-bet or get it in on flop. He did have KK. He told me after table broke and also later he told final table how sick of a fold I made. Some players ranges are much easier to read than others. One guy I play with is a habitual limper. He literally never raises…maybe 5%. I had QQ. He raised. I 3-bet and correctly folded to his 4-bet. He physically can’t 4-bet light. He literally does not have it in him to adjust. He would flat with Jacks. So that hand I folded correct and blinded down to a suuuuper short stack. This format has no antes and normally I would never allow myself to get so short but the QQ hand happened. I am in BB with A8 off. Folds around to button where same player min raises. We are at 2k/4k. I have 10k. Obviously, I am supposed to get it in there and I did. However, I really try to think about ranges constantly. Again, I know these guys unlike any players I would face in Vegas or on the circuit…this is unique circumstance…when this guy min raises what hands is he doing that with? He would literally fold all his broadway cards to me. He would only shove better Aces than mine. He would fold worse ones. He would fold 22-55. I put his range at a pair AA-66 and Ax(K-9). That’s just my read. I know it’s super specific but I know them well. I’ve played 7 tournaments with them this year 1 of 20, 1 of 20, 1 of 13, 2 of 54, 5 of 30, 6 of 20, 9 of 20. +1809 in 50Rs. For me I want to work on how am I going to improve in fields against unknowns. I’ll be at Cherokee for 3 $365s. If the set hand had of happened there, I would not be folding. This is actually the only scenario I find a fold and I don’t know if I will ever fold a set again. Thanks for the feedback!
March 9, 2014
Offline
If you called preflop for set value, no way I am folding set on flop. Also this tourney looks like turbo live, not really deep, so I want to double up here or go home. Also not big buyin to cry at home because of this. I am fine with 3bet and I am never calling his 4bet. I am shoving here. If you call his 4bet, whats your plan on turn? Catch last 3 and be happy to put chips in? Or folding on any card that comes on turn and lost 5k because of 4b call? Easy 5bet shove here imo, if he really has KK, GG and UL us.
February 15, 2013
Offline
If he checks the turn, I bet for value on non-diamond turns. Again though, I am sayin I made a mistake. Also, this is deep. We play 2 weeks of 50R with 2 or 3 rebuys. Then we play one week deep stack. So the 50Rs are 8k chips at 500/100 (80BB). The deep stack is 15k chips at 25/50 (300BB). In this hand, we were about 160/170BB effective. The reason I 3-bet so big was to avoid playing against an Omaha hand. I mean multiple people on multiple draws. My normal 3-bet sizing would be like 2350.
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
54 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
Habanerra
CSerpent
KJ
Tillery999
sdmathis89
ne0x00
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12011
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1
