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February 17, 2014
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Hey there,
This is something has been on my mind for a while. Im on a stake group and I get coaching with 2 different guys, mainly for 180s SNGs. One of them, is on the line of NEVER flatting with less than 20bbs (only monsters for trapping). The other one will flat even from a 10bb stack in the BB for example, to give up if not connected.
Im still on my way of deciding but I tend to NEVER flat because I still consider I got a lot to learn and dont want to get in tricky spots.
Today, this spot came up on the HH review and one of the lads criticized my flat here from 19bbs. The villain was a 19/15. I dont like shoving here because wont achieve much, hell call with AJs (maybe), AQ and AK as well as pairs that are virtually ahead, but will fold AT and smaller aces and other kind of broadway hadns. Folding might be an option but I feel is too nitty to fold a nice suited ace in the BU, so I decided to flat.
This is a screenshot of the spot:
The question is not only for this spot (still interesting to debate) but generally: when should I (If I should at all) flat with 20bb or less stacks? What do you usually do when youre in those spots?
Cheers!
Rama
As you already know, each and every situation is different and unique, no one rule applies.
In this particular example, pre-ante it is not necessary to fold here imo. Pre-ante I am also 3betting less, prob only premiums or good spots if deeper. So I don't mind a flat here as you did. With that said, I don't hate a fold either. I feel in the early stages before antes come, you need take a few extra spots and splash a little to build a stack. This is one of those situations where you could potentially start building a stack so, therefore, I like flatting more than folding. You have position and a lot of ways you can play the hand postflop
April 8, 2013
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The reason flatting here is not so desirable is because you are against an opponent with a fairly strong range given his stats and the position he is opening from. Combine that with the fact your hand actually has quite a bit of reverse implied odds makes this a tough flat. Its tough to say without an idea of the field size and average stack but given the other stacks at the table it seems like a decent spot to 3 bet fold. You can make it extremely small (600ish) given the fact you are in position and it puts the opener in a really tough spot.
The types of spots I look to flat with so few bbs would be spots where my hand is dominating a large portion of my opponents opening range however getting this many bbs in preflop likely strengthens his range to the point where it is breakeven at best. A good example would be if this villain had opened the cutoff and you have something like AQ. You are certainly ahead of his range, however if you get 17bbs in preflop you are probably behind his range. I would flat to keep all of the hands im dominating in the pot.
August 4, 2014
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what is the relationship btw getting in or flatting preflop and being behind or ahead of his range?
April 8, 2013
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There are certainly spots where you are ahead of someones opening range but not ahead of the range they are willing to get in 16-20bb. For instance, as the villain in a random scenario Im probably willing to open a fairly wide range from late ish position however if I get 3 bet or jammed on for 16-20bb my calling/jamming range is going to obviously be much tighter.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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hawkeyeK9 said:
As you already know, each and every situation is different and unique, no one rule applies.
In this particular example, pre-ante it is not necessary to fold here imo. Pre-ante I am also 3betting less, prob only premiums or good spots if deeper. So I don't mind a flat here as you did. With that said, I don't hate a fold either. I feel in the early stages before antes come, you need take a few extra spots and splash a little to build a stack. This is one of those situations where you could potentially start building a stack so, therefore, I like flatting more than folding. You have position and a lot of ways you can play the hand postflop
I don't see why this should be true. Certainly you should play more hands to a raise once there are antes in the pot! What is an “extra spot”? Calling is either +EV (taking into consideration implied odds, bluff opportunities, etc) or it isn't. The correct way to build a stack is to make +EV calls. Making -EV calls just hoping to get lucky is not sound strategy.
I'm not sure that that's what you're advocating, and I otherwise agree with most of what you say here, but I just don't think the concept of “splashing around” should enter into it.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Whether and when to cold call with a short stack is a very different question than when to call from the BB. I'd argue you should call more often from the BB the shorter your stack is, because you don't have to be as worried about reverse implied odds, getting barreled off of equity, etc. Agree with Joe about when and why to consider a cold call, and I think that as long as the opener's range in your example isn't too strong (which it may well be, pre-ante), you have a good candidate for flatting.
Foucault said:
hawkeyeK9 said:
As you already know, each and every situation is different and unique, no one rule applies.
In this particular example, pre-ante it is not necessary to fold here imo. Pre-ante I am also 3betting less, prob only premiums or good spots if deeper. So I don't mind a flat here as you did. With that said, I don't hate a fold either. I feel in the early stages before antes come, you need take a few extra spots and splash a little to build a stack. This is one of those situations where you could potentially start building a stack so, therefore, I like flatting more than folding. You have position and a lot of ways you can play the hand postflop
I don't see why this should be true. Certainly you should play more hands to a raise once there are antes in the pot! What is an “extra spot”? Calling is either +EV (taking into consideration implied odds, bluff opportunities, etc) or it isn't. The correct way to build a stack is to make +EV calls. Making -EV calls just hoping to get lucky is not sound strategy.
I'm not sure that that's what you're advocating, and I otherwise agree with most of what you say here, but I just don't think the concept of “splashing around” should enter into it.
Solid point. Splashing around is the wrong choice of words and the wrong message. I do like flatting this spot though. Pre-ante, not tons in the middle to win by 3bet jamming. We are suited with an ace blocker here. I do believe it is a +EV call in position.
February 15, 2013
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I would flat on button or in blinds. Doesn't change the value of your stack much. I don't like jamming. I feel like our hand loses value doing that. It's way ahead or behind. I would rather jam with QJ or J10 suited, where I am not usually dominated. I view AJ off and A10 suited as about the same. Maybe I am wrong but that's my thought process.
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