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Flatting IP with 20-25/30 BB
JacquetK
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December 8, 2014 - 10:18 am
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Dear TPE Pros

I've recently been reviewing my MTT sessions filtering for hands between the 20 to 30 BB range. 

I'd like to share a (fairly normal) pre-flop spot & ask a few quesitons about how the hand/our actions should change based on a few adaptations. 

Poker Stars $20+$2 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t75/t150 Blinds + t20 - 9 players - View hand 2620270
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

Hero (MP1): BB = 21.4, t3203
zavor (MP2): BB = 37.8, t5663
karimmulla (CO): BB = 64.3, t9641
Kashmir_uzi (BTN): BB = 19.5, t2928
shiblyboy (SB): BB = 76.9, t11530
gray31 (BB): BB = 20.9, t3140
venced0r (UTG): BB = 55.3, t8289
ChKo (UTG+1): BB = 44.7, t6703
Tr!pleeeee (UTG+2): BB = 21.5, t3232

Pre Flop: (t405) Hero is MP1 with K
 of clubs
J
 of clubs
2 folds, Tr!pleeeee raises to t300, 6 folds


Villain (Tripleee) was playing 21/14/10 over 56 hands. 
His raise first in was 0 (EP) / 38 (MP) / 0 (CO) / 50 (BTN). 
Cbet% was 50% over 2 hands & FCB 50% over 2 hands. 
Villain has 22BB 

I was playing 19/17/9 over 56 hands
My raise first in was 17 (EP)/ 18 (MP) / 67 (CO) / 100 (BTN)
CB% was 100% over 1 hand & FCB 100% over 1 hand 
I have 21BB

The players left to act are normal regs, no big fishes or aggro/squeeze happy players left to act.
Every player left to act has around 30-45 bb, so no re-shove stacks 

The hypothetical question here: Do we have a flat calling range in this exact spot?
–> I think not, maybe with KK or AA if we're trapping & expect our opp not to perceive this to be very strong

My question: What has to change for us in order to have a flat calling range here?
 –> Could we flat with these exact stack sizes if we have a good read on our opp & on how he plays postflop? (= hypothetical, not based on the info we have of this opp) 
  –> He plays fit/fold, checks when he's ready to fold, bets if he has it? 
  –> He usually gives up after his cbet gets called –>  floating & betting if he checks the turn has a high succesrate

–> If our opp isn't that 'easy to play against', what has to change for us to profitably flat in position with this exact hand? (when no squeeze-happy players or re-shove stacks are left to act)
  –> Effective stacks: more like 25bbs? 30 bbs? & why? 

–> How does this change based on the hand we would like to flat? 
  –> SC's & small pairs? If we expect to get at least 10x the amount of money we have to invest (= the call) & this obviously depends on the opp you're facing (will he keep barreling when you x-call or will he not invest a lot with a marginal made hand). We probably don't have this too often with 20-25bbs
  –> Middle pairs? Are we going to face too many tough decision with a 25bb stack when we flat here & should we thus simply fold pre to the open?
  –> Suited broadways that aren't the nuts (KQ,KJ,KT, QJ,QT,JT): We aren't really happy getting it in postflop here with only toppair for 20-25bb, so should we just fold our hand? Should we wait to play it when we're deeper?

I know we can still 3b these hands versus a player that opens a lot & always folds or 4bets with a very nutty range (top 5%) but this is a purely hypothetical post where I would like to talk about flatting IP with 20-25/30BB range & what (effective stack size, hand strength, opp's tendencies pre-flop, opp's tendencies post-flop,… ) should change for us to profitably flat IP.

Thanks in advance & good luck at the tables! 

ltcolumbo
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December 8, 2014 - 1:56 pm
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“The hypothetical question here: Do we have a flat calling range in this exact spot?
–> I think not, maybe with KK or AA if we're trapping & expect our opp not to perceive this to be very strong”

why would you not have a flat call range here?  I am only investing 1 BB to defend my blind.  I dont really like 3 betting KJs that often and seems too strong to fold.  With 20-30BB and for 1 more BB, I should defend with hands that may flop well.  I may 3-bet AA sometimes, but I might also 3bet ATo or a middle pair depending on his range. 

Is your conjecture that you want to be 3-betting here all the time? 

JacquetK
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December 8, 2014 - 2:30 pm
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ltcolumbo said: ltcolumbo said: Thanks for your response!

I think you might have misread the situation: we're not in the BB – I'd definitely defend getting over 3,5 to 1 – with a hand that flops well like KJs, but we're in MP & was wondering if in this exact spot we have a flat calling range? And if not, what (opponent, effective stack size, our hand,… )would have to change for us to have a flat calling range here. 

Foucault

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December 8, 2014 - 6:06 pm
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I think I just wouldn't have a flatting range here, though if I did these suited broadways are about the best candidates for it. I could see flatting against some of the super-predictable opponents you consider. Also there's a big difference between a 21BB stack and a 30BB stack, I could see flatting with more like 30 behind. I could also maybe see flatting if you had the BN, as there's less concern about a raise behind you.

ltcolumbo
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December 9, 2014 - 12:52 pm
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JacquetK said:

ltcolumbo said: ltcolumbo said: Thanks for your response!

I think you might have misread the situation: we're not in the BB – I'd definitely defend getting over 3,5 to 1 – with a hand that flops well like KJs, but we're in MP & was wondering if in this exact spot we have a flat calling range? And if not, what (opponent, effective stack size, our hand,… )would have to change for us to have a flat calling range here. 

ah, my mistake.  Yeah, RARELY have a flatting range here unless its for effect.  i.e. just to confuse a particular opponent.  But I would have to be deeper, at least 30 BB.

MR_JAM
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January 28, 2015 - 12:46 pm
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1st things 1st.

 

56 hands on someone is **** all , tracker can really get you into very bad decisions .

 

Anyways , I think a flat is 100% ok there, flat see a flop, if you hit some sort of draw check/rasie all in 20bbs.

 

If you miss check/fold…

andinista
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March 27, 2015 - 11:36 am
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The OP that suggests calling pre and even floating a flop cbet with 21bbs seems really spewy. Any flat with this stack seems very optimistic. The problem is the 35% of the time we do hit something to go with, too often we are just drawing or dominated. 30bb flats seem much better.

For the same price of the flat+float, we can 3b/f 25% of our stack pre and still retain a resteal stack. Perhaps I think villain will fold pre 35%, I'll flop a pair or draw to go with 35%, and lose to 4bs and giveups 30% in a spot. Seems like a decent proposition in games where regs and fish are increasingly flatting small 3bs. What do the site pros think of this possibility?

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