Home
(0 votes) 
October 21, 2013
Offline
The title itself is recipe for disaster, as we should not opt to play sc oop I know, BUT in case we do…
If we think/know villain is never 3bet bluffing here (i think he tribets QQ-AK here he is not a reg capable of doing creative things) what's the best line to make him fold an overpair here ?
I think/know that Andrew will say that the best way to exploit him in this spot is by folding pre flop…and i completely agree with that…
but if stubbornly we do flat what should we do ? i dont know if check-commiting our self on this flop is the best line to take, it certainly is the easiest line, but i dont think is the best one (or in other words the one that gives us the most chances to make him fold his overpair) and i'm not result oriented.
Maybe check calling flop and check shoving turn ? or check calling flop donking turn ?
check-minraising flop and shoving turn ?
i dont know, what do you guys think ?
April 26, 2013
Offline
Against his hand you are actually 54:46 favourite on the flop. As played pre, without knowing his hand I'd get it in OTF, too.
But let's think about the hands he'll call our 3bet on the flop. I say he's aggro so I give him TT+, any of the sets of course and any Ax clubs and Kx clubs. Against that range we are even better off: 58:42 favourite. Now with the additional times he folds and we pick up a decent amout of chips, this is a clearly ship. So wp, just run UL. About the call pre: Yeah in the long run I am pretty sure you make more chips just folding. If he were as deep as you (~5k chips) then I'd like the call a bit more.
April 26, 2013
Offline
About that flop: except for actually flopping a complete straight this is the best it ever gets. Toppair+flushdraw+gutshot is fantastic, if you would ever consider not getting that in, never even think about calling suited connectors. Just my opinion, I am convinced that the line you took (committing OTF) is the best way here, even if you somehow knew he held AAc.
October 21, 2013
Offline
“as played without knowing his hand”
Here is the first problem WE DO KNOW HIS HAND: his range is tot unbalnced and is AK-QQ+ stop that is it so since he is c betting that flop we can now saying that he has QQ KK or AA…that's why i posted this hand, i know we are a favorite here but since we know his actual holding (and that he is not folding it on the flop) cant we try to do something else rather than get it in on a coinflip ? this is my original question
April 26, 2013
Offline
But ingame you DON'T know his real holdings. Even if he is the tight, uncreative player you think he is, there are always bluffs, semibluffs, misclicks and tilt/spewhands in his range, so we can't just put him on AK, QQ+ only imo.
Then again, as I said, even if you know he holds aces with the A of clubs, you are a favourite OTF, your best play is a shove (+EV) because it's the worst thing that can happen to villain: beeing pot-committed (even if he knew your exact holdings) due to pot-odds, before seeing a none-spade, non-4to-straight-turn.
By just calling his cbet on the flop you have to give up if you don't improve on the turn to 2pair, straight or flush, if he bets big enough. You will then save a few chips in the short run, but give up chips that are yours in the long run, because OTF you were the favourite to win and made a non-optimal play (if calling his cbet instead of your imo correct raise).
Oh, and it's not a coinflip. The better the competition, the smaller edges you got to take. So 10 %points is something you should notice on the long run. Of course, early we want to try and reduce variance, because we should have a decent edge on the field with usually so many bad players. But when you make the (small?) mistake of calling his 3bet pre, this is no excuse to continue with another mistake, in this case not trying to extract our max. value from flopping (almost 😉 the nuts.
September 5, 2013
Offline
Your UTG open range is way to wide and therefore exploitable, and like you said you should fold vs a 3b certainly vs a unbalanced nitty player with a strong 3b range. Getting it in on the flop is never wrong (vs a unbalanced villain) ofcourse , because we're getting it in as a favorite vs a range that is never folding (flop or blank turns). So this must be the max EV play. But against a decent villain with a balanced 3b range, I think calling and x/shoving turn is the maxEv play.
October 21, 2013
Offline
And you know what pckrr you might be right but in the case we are against a balanced range i dont mind that much getting it in on the flop because we have one thing that in my hand we dont have which is fold equity…
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Offline
I'd open-fold, but I wouldn't fold to the 3-bet getting 6:1 or whatever. It might be interesting for you to try doing the math. Make some assumptions about his range and how he'll play it on various turn cards and see if you can do better than just getting in on the flop. My guess is yes if he consistently pays you off when you improve on the turn but no if he folds turns well.
October 21, 2013
Offline
Thanks Andrew!
May 20, 2013
Offline
Most of the time I am open folding, right? But let's say you do this to widen your range/balance EP raises. Ok…
When he raises, your odds are too attractive to fold (as stated by Andrew) at 6-1.
Then you flop the best you can hope for other than the nuts. You are a narrow favorite vs. overpair now. There is no reason to believe that the check-raise is not optimal(?)
When he raises the check-raise on the flop, his hand is now face up (he has TT-AA).
You have $3800 behind and there is $6k in the pot (~1.6:1). You have 9(clubs)+3(fours)+2(7s)+3(6) or 17 outs twice which is huge.
If you are not calling this, you should never have been in the hand?
(Did I do the math right?)
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Offline
columbo,
I believe OP's question is about whether it's better to check-call the flop and get the money in on good turns while check-folding bad ones, or to check-raise and get it in on the flop. The latter is certainly +EV, the question is whether the former might be even better if we knew for certain that Villain had an overpair and wasn't going to fold it. I don't think he's considering a fold at any point on the flop.
May 20, 2013
Offline
That clarifies things. Still, hope I did the math correctly. That being clarified, wouldn't OP want to get the money in when +EV (or equity) is greatest?
If OP check-calls, there are two turn scenarios:
- His hand improves, but now villian has chance to escape.
- his hand does not improve and equity is dimished significantly.
So I can stick by my original statement, “if you arn't willing to get it in on this flop, why be in the hand at all?”
one last thought: perhaps an argument can be made for shoving the flop instead of check-raising if you wanted some fold equity vs TT-AA?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Offline
ltcolumbo said:
That clarifies things. Still, hope I did the math correctly. That being clarified, wouldn't OP want to get the money in when +EV (or equity) is greatest?
If OP check-calls, there are two turn scenarios:
- His hand improves, but now villian has chance to escape.
- his hand does not improve and equity is dimished significantly.
So I can stick by my original statement, “if you arn't willing to get it in on this flop, why be in the hand at all?”
one last thought: perhaps an argument can be made for shoving the flop instead of check-raising if you wanted some fold equity vs TT-AA?
He's not unwilling to get it in, he's asking if there's a more profitable way to play the hand. You aren't obligated to shove every flop that is good for your hand. You're allowed to consider other options.
Try actually calculating the EV of a call-and-make-a-turn-decision strategy. I can promise you two things:
1. If Villain folds every turn that improves Hero, getting it in on the flop will be better.
2. If Villain gets it in on every turn that improves Hero, waiting to see a turn card will be better.
Most likely, Villain will stack off on some turns and not others. So make some assumptions, crunch some numbers, and see what you come up with.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
Offline
I agree with open-folding pre, but I think calling the 3bet is probably fine considering the odds you're getting and how well your hand plays. However, I think tons of people massively overplay pair+flushdraw hands, and this is a spot where you did the same. I think just calling the flop is definitely the play, because you're not going to find it too difficult to get value on the turn when you do hit.
I also take issue with the logic of “what's the best way to get him to fold an overpair here” – short answer is, there isn't one. All the overpairs in his range (which I'm assuming is JJ+, possibly even QQ+) are so strong that he's just never ever folding them on the flop here, no matter what you do. “How do I get him to fold a hand he thinks is the nuts” is the wrong question to answer – instead, ask yourself “is my check-raise a value bet or a bluff? Do I ever get called by worse hands? Do I get better hands to fold?” – these are the questions people rarely ask when they punt off stacks with a pair+FD combo, because they put themselves in spots where the showdown value of their pair is virtually irrelevant since they're putting in chips in spots where only much stronger hands can call them.
October 21, 2013
Offline
I assume my poor writing skills probabably got you mistaken mr hunt: i didnt ask for the best way to make him fold an overpair here on the flop, I know i cant make him fold an overpair on the flop because i have no fe vs an op, that's the reason why i posted the hand in the first place…i said what's the best LINE to make him fold an overpair ,
As Andrew said “I believe OP's question is about whether it's better to check-call the flop and get the money in on good turns while check-folding bad ones, or to check-raise and get it in on the flop.”
The problem with check calling on the flop is thati know Villain folds (almost) every turn that improves Hero, so as andrew said, “if that's the case getting it in on the flop will be better.”
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
15 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
Tillery999
sdmathis89
ne0x00
adrianvaida2525
Anteeater
Laggro
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12008
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1
