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Flat on BB and unconventional play afterwards
chaos
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April 19, 2016 - 1:48 pm
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So this is just me reviewing some of the hands of some of the latest tournaments. I came with this hand which is, at least, unconventional to say the least. The play works and I don’t necessarily think having these kind of plays is necessarily bad but I wanted to review it, just because it works I’m not sure whether it is bad.

 

Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter
No Limit Holdem Tournament PokerStars
9 Players
$2.00+$2.00+$0.40

Blinds 60/120 9
UTG Bilzinho 3,547
UTG+1 mike:-)lieke 4,314
MP1 Salieri76 1,833
MP2 ZaTVoR932 2,397
MP3 Excellent233 3,951
CO undeshilã 6,613
D LUNARI29 2,319
SB rano17 2,605
BB Hero 7,313

Preflop
9 315 Hero is BB A J
1 fold, mike:-)lieke raises to 240, 5 folds, rano17 calls 180, Hero calls 120
Flop
3 855 T 7 4
rano17 checks, Hero bets 384, mike:-)lieke calls 384, rano17 calls 384
Turn
3 2,007 5
rano17 checks, Hero checks, mike:-)lieke checks
River
3 2,007 5
rano17 checks, Hero bets 1,000, mike:-)lieke folds, rano17 folds
Final Pot 3,007

Hero wins 3,007 (net +1,368)
rano17 lost 639
mike:-)lieke lost 639

Preflop I just flat as I don’t really want to play a 3bet pop out of position. Rival are loose, EP has a 35 VPIP and a high OR EP while SB is flating around 45%.

 

Obviously things get strange on the flop. It’s clear to me I can still have the best hand (equity wise) but it’s difficult for me to realise that equity. It is also clear a T is more on my range than it is on SB or the original raiser so I choose to represent that T by donking the flop with the intention of bet-folding. My intentions with the bet is to represent the T and take down the pot knowing that if I get called (mostly by the SB) I can still win the pot by hitting an A or a J. If I get raised I will just fold.

 

On the turn after the two calls I just decide to check fold.

 

In the river I decide I can probably turn my hand into a bluff and get them out of a lot of better hands with the bluff being consistent with my play (I would have played a T like that) and they’ll be folding AQ, AK, some 7x, some 88 and even some 99.

 

It works, but I’m not sure if this is a good play or it just worked but was a bad play. Thoughts?

MovieFX
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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April 19, 2016 - 2:51 pm
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What hands do you think you look like you have when you check the turn? In my mind:
– If you picked up a flush or made a straight you are probably betting.
– You should be betting a T for value and protection/charging draws. Once you lead the flop even T9 is probably a bet for me on the turn, at least, considering the pot is multi-way and draw-heavy.
– I never quite know what to think of a donk-bet, but my mind usually goes towards blocker-bets, a weak-and-scared-TP, bottom-two or bottom set that is hoping to induce a c/r from a TPTK type hand…or nothing.

On the river I think it looks like you have 88, 99, 89, 7x (for a stretch) and perhaps some weak Ts you are pot-controlling

The one thing a turn check can hide is if the SB was planning on calling flop and c/r turn and never got the chance. When he also checks the river I don’t think he is strong, but could still c/c

FWIW, as played, I snap-call you with hands like 88, 99, and a T that has a kicker I’m not happy about. I might get there with A7s and might even call.  …but then no one ever accused me of not calling enough 😉

theginger45

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April 22, 2016 - 9:18 am
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This seems pretty button-clicky to me, and by that I mean I don’t really like it.

Calling preflop is fine, and I don’t even think it’s necessarily bad to have a leading range on this flop (even into two players, one of whom has an uncapped range), but I think AJo is the wrong hand to do it with. You have very little equity versus calling ranges and few outs on later streets. Leading out here with your sets/2pairs/straight draws is fine, but there’s no reason to do it with random overcards.

On the turn, I can understand giving up when you get called in two spots, but the fact that you so rarely pick up equity here and therefore can continue betting is why AJo is a poor hand to put in your leading range.

River…I’m not really sure what you’re trying to represent. Neither villain is going to fold a Tx hand and you don’t really represent any strong hands any more after checking the turn, so your range doesn’t really look like it has much value in it. You block AT and JT which I suppose is a good thing, but those hands would likely bet the turn some % of the time.

Don’t get too caught up in thinking in terms of whether something “works” or “doesn’t work”. That’s an assessment that’s grounded in the hand you’re playing right now, whereas you should be trying to think theoretically about your entire range in these situations. You don’t always want this play to ‘work’, because sometimes you want to have value here – if you never take this line for value, you’re playing super exploitably and that’s a bad habit to get into, even if weaker players won’t exploit you.

chaos
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April 22, 2016 - 11:42 am
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Thanks for the answers.

My thought process here (I think) was, “I have very little chance of winning the pot but I may well have the best hand” so I led with the intention of a) winning the pot right there, b) setting up the action for later streets by being able to represent the ten on the river.

Now when I say “works” I mean that I win the pot at this particular instance and, you know, being rewarded is the kind of thing that promotes doing the wrong thing just because it happened to work once. Obviosly while reviewing the hand it did strike me as a really unconventional way of playing the hand and, even though I won it, I wasn’t particularly sure it was well played.

Saving that, both Ginger45 and MoiveFX disagree with the line (and I do kind of find it strange myself) but what would you thing would be the right thing to do in this spot? Check-fold?

Foucault

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April 22, 2016 - 12:19 pm
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what would you thing would be the right thing to do in this spot? Check-fold?”

Yes.

“My thought process here (I think) was, “I have very little chance of winning the pot but I may well have the best hand”

The thing is that there’s no prize for having the best hand before showdown. You shouldn’t be extra-focused on winning the pot just because you may have the best hand. If anything, you should be LESS focused on it. The flop is not going to get bet 100% of the time, especially not 100% of the time when you have the best hand. It will sometimes check around, and when it does, AJ has a lot more value than many of the other random hands you could hold, which makes it especially unappealing to turn into a bluff.

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